Interview with Gennady W. Potapenko on 26 December 1974
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The interview listed below was either transcribed as part of Sullivan's research for his book, Cosmic Noise: A History of Early Radio Astronomy (Cambridge University Press, 2009) or was transcribed in the NRAO Archives by Sierra Smith in 2012-2013. The transcription may have been read and edited for clarity by Sullivan, and may have also been read and edited by the interviewee. Any notes added in the reading/editing process by Sullivan, the interviewee, or others who read the transcript have been included in brackets. If the interview was transcribed for Sullivan, the original typescript of the interview is available in the NRAO Archives. Sullivan's notes about each interview are available on the individual interviewee's Web page. During processing, full names of institutions and people were added in brackets and if especially long the interview was split into parts reflecting the sides of the original audio cassette tapes. We are grateful for the 2011 Herbert C. Pollock Award from Dudley Observatory which funded digitization of the original cassette tapes, and for a 2012 grant from American Institute of Physics, Center for the History of Physics, which funded the work of posting these interviews to the Web.
In preparing Sullivan interviews for Web publication, the NRAO/AUI Archives has made a concerted effort to obtain release forms from interviewees or from their heirs or next of kin. In the case of this interview, we have been unable to find anyone to sign a release. In accordance with our open access policy, we are posting the interview. If you suspect alleged copyright infringement on our site, please email archivist@nrao.edu. Upon request, we will remove material from public view while we address a rights issue. Please contact us if you are able to supply any contact information for Potapenko's heirs/next of kin.
Please bear in mind that: 1) This material is a transcript of the spoken word rather than a literary product; 2) An interview must be read with the awareness that different people's memories about an event will often differ, and that memories can change with time for many reasons including subsequent experiences, interactions with others, and one's feelings about an event.
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Transcribed for Sullivan by Bonnie Jacobs.
Sullivan
I’m talking on the telephone with Dr. G., for Gennady, Potapenko, who is retired and living in Pasadena. I’m talking from the University of Washington on 26 December ’74. I see, so what exactly did you do out in the Mojave Desert?
Potapenko
We got definite results about the direction...
Sullivan
You did get definite results?
Potapenko
I didn’t understand you.
Sullivan
Did you get any definite signals?
Potapenko
Yes, I had definite signals. I and my assistant, we worked, there were just two of us, and he pointed the direction...
Sullivan
Right, and who was your assistant?
Potapenko
[Donald F.] Folland.
Sullivan
Is he still alive now?
Potapenko
I beg your pardon?
Sullivan
Is Folland still alive now?
Potapenko
Do you mean right here?
Sullivan
Do you know where he lives now?
Potapenko
Oh, in Salt Lake City.
Sullivan
In Salt Lake City?
Potapenko
Yes.
Sullivan
And is he working somewhere?
Potapenko
I'm not sure. He may be sick.
Sullivan
I see, what was his first name?
Potapenko
Donald. Just a minute. If I would know that you were recording me I would pay for this record. But they are not as [?]. Just a minute. Can you talk more?
Sullivan
Talk more about what?
Potapenko
Can you talk longer?
Sullivan
Oh yes, certainly.
Potapenko
All right, just a minute. I will try to get that...
Sullivan
Ok, very good. Can you tell me why you were interested in doing this?
Potapenko
Oh, signals from stars, certainly it is interesting, very interesting.
Sullivan
But, you had no doubt that what Jansky had was real?
Potapenko
No, I did not.
Sullivan
Why do you think it was that other physicists and astronomers and so forth did not see the importance of this?
Potapenko
I really do not know, but I went so far that, after the Mojave Desert work, I designed a big antenna.
Sullivan
You designed a big antenna?
Potapenko
Yes, and I did it for Dr. [Robert Andrews] Millikan and explained him everything and next day he told me, "You know it would cost $1,000? Then we [?] and my work was finished.
Sullivan
I see, what frequency were you operating at?
Potapenko
14 meters, if I remember correctly.
Sullivan
14 Megacycles?
Potapenko
I don't remember- megacycles or meters.
Sullivan
Right, it’s pretty close, yes...
Potapenko
Wait a minute...
Sullivan
Hello.
Potapenko
I got it - the research. February 18, 1936.
Sullivan
February 18, 1936?
Potapenko
Yes.
Sullivan
I see.
Potapenko
There is a report and there is a reference to [Karl] Jansky.
Sullivan
Was this a Caltech laboratory report?
Potapenko
About us, Science Service writers. Now wait a minute...
Sullivan
Hello...
Potapenko
I did it with this- I’m pretty sure it is in 1936; 1935 we made our measurements. Although I have no direct reference for that.
Sullivan
I see, now what do you actually have there- do you have any of the original data or just comments on...
Potapenko
Yes, I have my original drawings.
Sullivan
For the telescope- for the antenna?
Potapenko
Yes. If you would know [Russell Porter?] you would at once see and appraise them. He did his sketches of our antennas.
Sullivan
Oh yes, that would be very interesting. The trouble is I don't think I can get down there until next summer.
Potapenko
Oh, [?].
Sullivan
Do you think it would be possible to send them to me and I could make copies of them and send them back to you?
Potapenko
I do not know. I don't know. There are many of them.
Sullivan
Well, you could send them...
Potapenko
Can you wait until summer?
Sullivan
Well, I can wait, yes, but I'm very interested- I'd like to see this material, because I'm going to be looking at Jansky’s archives which are kept in Wisconsin...
Potapenko
Ah ha...
Sullivan
And I would like very much to see- I'm going to do that in March and I would like to...
Potapenko
And I have my report about the other people.
Sullivan
I see, yes. Do you not think it would be possible to mail this to me? And then I would mail it right back to you after I made copies of it.
Potapenko
I will try to.
Sullivan
Ok, I would appreciate it very much.
Potapenko
All right, but first next week, I will maybe have an operation.
Sullivan
OK. Which will give me no time for another week.
Potapenko
Thank you very, very much for...
Sullivan
Well, can I ask you a couple more questions?
Potapenko
Yes, sure if you have time.
Sullivan
Why was it that you did not make any formal publication of your results?
Potapenko
Because Millikan disapproved of my work as not interesting.
Sullivan
I see. So Millikan did not think that it was worthwhile?
Potapenko
No, not worth spending $1,000 and I was really disappointed that they hadn’t worked [?].
Sullivan
I see. And you wanted to do much more?
Potapenko
Yes.
Sullivan
Oh, that is really a shame!
Potapenko
For shame... The shame is not me. The shame is the situation in the school. $1,000, Caltech cannot find $1,000. That's a shame.
Sullivan
Well, it was the depression though, $1,000 was a lot of money then wasn't it?
Potapenko
Yes, sure.
Sullivan
Can I also ask you a little bit about your background?
Potapenko
Yes, please...
Sullivan
You came to this country from Russia, I think?
Potapenko
In 1930. I was a fellow, a foundation fellow.
Sullivan
And may I ask, what year you were born?
Potapenko
In Moscow.
Sullivan
In what year?
Potapenko
1895.
Sullivan
And then you stayed in this country...
Potapenko
And I was educated in Moscow in the secondary school, the Gymnasium, and in the [?]. In 1913 I got the [?] degree.
Sullivan
Then you came to this country and you stayed- you've been in this country ever since?
Potapenko
Yes, then I was in Germany in 1926. I worked [?] Berlin. Then I went back to Moscow, and in Moscow I received a letter from the Rockefeller Foundation. So I came to this country, and I worked here since then.
Sullivan
I see. But now, you were not an astronomer or a cosmic ray physicist or a radio engineer, how was it that you heard about Jansky's observations?
Potapenko
Oh, I was interested in that problem.
Sullivan
Which problem?
Potapenko
Waves from the stars!
Sullivan
But, did you just happen to see the article?
Potapenko
Yes, that's right.
Sullivan
Just by chance?
Potapenko
No, not by chance. I before was interested in that- enough.
Sullivan
So, basically to summarize then, you did one experiment in the Mojave Desert and you detected the galactic center...
Potapenko
Yes, that's right.
Sullivan
And, how long were you actually out in the desert doing experiments?
Potapenko
Oh, I went there many times, many, many times, so there would be quite some figure if I added [?] all the times.
Sullivan
And, did you make measurements of other parts of the sky besides the galactic center? Did you have enough sensitivity?
Potapenko
Yes, I believe I. did yes, I did.
Sullivan
What kind of antenna was it?
Potapenko
One wire!
Sullivan
Oh, just one wire.
Potapenko
Yes. And one man would walk around and the other would be, in other words, sitting and taking readings. That is a very primitive one.
Sullivan
But you could see that you got more signal when the galactic center was highest in the sky?
Potapenko
I don't remember exactly how it was. I don't want to mislead you.
Sullivan
Well, that's really a shame that you weren't able to do more work.
Potapenko
Yes, that's right.
Sullivan
You might have been the second radio astronomer after Jansky. Did you tell Jansky about this work?
Potapenko
No, I doubt it. Probably he knew, but I'm not sure.
Sullivan
Because you know Jansky had troubles also at Bell Labs. He could not get support to do more work...
Potapenko
Ah ha
Sullivan
He had the same problem you did.
Potapenko
I see, I see.
Sullivan
Also, did you know at all about the work of Grote Reber?
Potapenko
No, no, I don't know.
Sullivan
He was the only other person that did anything in the late ‘30s.
Potapenko
Ah ha. No, I don't know.
Sullivan
Do you know of any other observations, like yourself, that may not have been published at this time, 1935 to 1940?
Potapenko
No, I don't. I really don‘t.
Sullivan
Ok, well thank you very much. If you...
Potapenko
All right, I will try to send all of the references to you.
Sullivan
I would appreciate it. And I will send it right back after make copies.
Potapenko
Bye-bye.
Sullivan
Bye-bye.
Note by Sullivan
That was a phone conversation with Gennady Potapenko, on 26 December 1974, from the University of Washington to his home in Pasadena, California where he is obviously very ill and in between operations, and so forth...