Interview with Harald T. Friis
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The interview listed below was either transcribed as part of Sullivan's research for his book, Cosmic Noise: A History of Early Radio Astronomy (Cambridge University Press, 2009) or was transcribed in the NRAO Archives by Sierra Smith in 2012-2013. The transcription may have been read and edited for clarity by Sullivan, and may have also been read and edited by the interviewee. Any notes added in the reading/editing process by Sullivan, the interviewee, or others who read the transcript have been included in brackets. If the interview was transcribed for Sullivan, the original typescript of the interview is available in the NRAO Archives. Sullivan's notes about each interview are available on the individual interviewee's Web page. During processing, full names of institutions and people were added in brackets and if especially long the interview was split into parts reflecting the sides of the original audio cassette tapes. We are grateful for the 2011 Herbert C. Pollock Award from Dudley Observatory which funded digitization of the original cassette tapes, and for a 2012 grant from American Institute of Physics, Center for the History of Physics, which funded the work of posting these interviews to the Web.
In preparing Sullivan interviews for Web publication, the NRAO/AUI Archives has made a concerted effort to obtain release forms from interviewees or from their heirs or next of kin. In the case of this interview, we have been unable to find anyone to sign a release. In accordance with our open access policy, we are posting the interview. If you suspect alleged copyright infringement on our site, please email archivist@nrao.edu. Upon request, we will remove material from public view while we address a rights issue. Please contact us if you are able to supply any contact information for Friis's heirs/next of kin.
Please bear in mind that: 1) This material is a transcript of the spoken word rather than a literary product; 2) An interview must be read with the awareness that different people's memories about an event will often differ, and that memories can change with time for many reasons including subsequent experiences, interactions with others, and one's feelings about an event.
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Sullivan
Harald Friis at his home in Palo Alto, California from the U.W. [University of Washington] and this is 3 February 1976. The first thing I was wondering if any plans exist now for the Bruce antenna that Jansky used. Do you know if there are still any drawings, or something?
Friis
I don't think so. That was a very different one, you know.
Sullivan
Right. Do you happen to remember how many wavelengths that the center of the antenna was above the ground?
Friis
I've forgotten now. It's not very high. It’s very close to the ground.
Sullivan
I tried to estimate it from a photograph, but I'm trying to accurately calculate what the antenna pattern was. That's why I'd like to know.
Friis
I've forgotten now. Was it about half a wavelength?
Sullivan
It's about a third of the wavelength. But I was wondering if you happen to know exactly what it was.
Friis
No.
Sullivan
I suppose it was whatever was convenient?
Friis
Right.
Sullivan
For the two-by fours, or whatever.
Friis
Right.
Sullivan
Do you know if there are any photos or log books that exist of this period that either you have or Bell Labs has, or anything like this?
Friis
Anymore?
Sullivan
Any other photographs or log books.
Friis
No, I don't have anything.
Sullivan
Do you know of anyone that does?
Friis
I only have what they put in the Bell Labs "Visionary."
Sullivan
In what?
Friis
In that big book Bell Labs puts out.
Sullivan
Yes. "Visionary?"
Friis
Yes.
Sullivan
When was that put out? I’m not sure I’ve seen that.
Friis
That was just a year ago.
Sullivan
And it had an article about Jansky?
Friis
Yes, a good article about Jansky.
Sullivan
Do you know what happened to the original log books and so forth that he had?
Friis
No, I don't know what happened to them.
Sullivan
There was no effort made to preserve them as far as you know?
Friis
Maybe the Bell Labs knows where they are.
Sullivan
The same with the original records I guess?
Friis
Right.
Sullivan
Well, let me ask some specific questions then about your article. You say here- you imply that Jansky was quite famous in his own time with this New York Times article and so forth. I was wondering, was that true, that there was an awful lot of publicity for it and so forth?
Friis
No. What was the first question?
Sullivan
I was wondering how famous Jansky was in his own time. Was Jansky widely recognized by radio engineers as having made a...
Friis
Not very much. Astronomers didn't care about it.
Sullivan
And why do you think that was?
Friis
I don't know, I don't understand it.
Sullivan
And what about the radio engineers?
Friis
That was about the same.
Sullivan
Why do you think it was that they got turned on to radio astronomy after World War II but not in the 1930s?
Friis
I don't know. You know that little paper I wrote- John Schelling.
Sullivan
That’s right. You mentioned him.
Friis
John Schelling. He knew all about Jansky too.
Sullivan
Do you know where he is now?
Friis
He's down at Deal. He still lives down there.
Sullivan
Let me see where you mention him. Where exactly is Deal?
Friis
A little south of Red Bank.
Sullivan
I see. Has he retired living there?
Friis
He lives there now, yes. He made a little comment in my little article about Karl Jansky. He said, "I pressed him too much."
Sullivan
Why did he think that?
Friis
Because I didn't think you could press Jansky enough. You know that whole business was funny.
Sullivan
In what way?
Friis
When Jansky got a job from me...
Sullivan
Right.
Friis
He had troubles, you know, with his kidneys. And he was told he should get a very easy job.
Sullivan
That's right, you mentioned that in the article.
Friis
He came down to me at Holmdel. I thought the right job for him is just to measure in what direction static comes in. So I gave him my turntable and the antenna. And then I had a receiving set- it was the best receiving set in existence then. Because that receiving set could distinguish between static noises and a steady noises.
Sullivan
What do you think was its noise figure?
Friis
Oh, I think that was pretty darned good, maybe 4-5 dB. I'm sure that was a good one.
Sullivan
Yes, very good.
Friis
Jansky, you know, was a perfect man, what do you call it, technical help. And he really took care of his job and took all the data all the time. And then he noticed after a year that things used to come at the same time. And then Schelling had a very good man there that knew about astronomy.
Sullivan
That was Skellett?
Friis
Skellett, yes.
Sullivan
Do you know where Skellett is now?
Friis
I don't know exactly where he is. Schelling could tell you. Because Skellett was an astronomer, you know.
Sullivan
Who did he work for then?
Friis
He worked for Schelling.
Sullivan
For which company, Bell Labs?
Friis
Yes, at Bell Labs.
Sullivan
And so Skellett was the one that taught Jansky the astronomy essentially?
Friis
He was the one that told him that it came from the center of the Milky Way. So Skellett was really a very important man.
Sullivan
Was Skellett the one that recognized the fact that it was coming four minutes earlier every day implied that it was...
Friis
Well, I thought the records showed that, you know.
Sullivan
Right, but was it Skellett the one that recognized why that was so important?
Friis
Well, I can't tell that.
Sullivan
You're not sure.
Friis
I was very busy with another job, the big antenna, and that's why I didn’t take more time with it. You know, Jansky had a very interesting brother.
Sullivan
I talked to his brother- he died a year ago.
Friis
He was a wonderful fellow.
Sullivan
Yes, I was glad I got to talk to him
Friis
He was the one that got Jansky to use his noise from the stars to open the big meeting of the IRE [Institute of Radio Engineers].
Sullivan
Which meeting was that?
Friis
The meeting in New York.
Sullivan
Oh, yes, of the IRE.
Friis
IRE, yes.
Sullivan
What was your relationship to Jansky? Were you his direct supervisor?
Friis
Yes, I was his direct supervisor.
Sullivan
And when he came upon this cosmic noise or whatever you want to call it, star static, did you allow him to just continue working with it?
Friis
Oh, yes. I continued working him on this and after some months another job came up that the Navy wanted done. So I put him on that job.
Sullivan
And this is in 1933?
Friis
Oh, later.
Sullivan
Before we get to later, I have a couple other questions here. You mentioned that in 1934 Jansky attempted to get cosmic noise at 4 meters wavelength.
Friis
Did he?
Sullivan
And you say that he was not successful, and I was wondering was this ever published in an internal report or anything like that?
Friis
I don't know, I'd forgotten about that.
Sullivan
Because it would be very interesting to know what the upper limit was, that he found.
Friis
Yes.
Sullivan
But you can't remember?
Friis
No.
Sullivan
Now in this article you talk about that in 1938 Karl dropped the study of star noise and later on that you were criticized by people that thought you had stopped him.
Friis
Right.
Sullivan
I just want to know if you still feel the same way, that it was mainly because there was no encouragement from the outside...
Friis
No, no. I think it was just a matter of things to do, you know. I was still surprised that the astronomers didn’t seem to be more interested.
Sullivan
I've heard from various sources, I've never been able to confirm it, that Jansky had a proposal for a 100 foot antenna of some kind.
Friis
No. That was all a fiction, you know. I remember still, there was a man Pfeiffer that wrote about Jansky.
Sullivan
Right, he wrote a popular book.
Friis
And he came to Holmdel to see Jansky. So he met Jansky [Sullivan: but Pfeiffer worked on his book ~4-5 years after Jansky’s death] and all my other young people. I still remember that.
Sullivan
Are you saying that he's the one that made up the story about the 100 foot antenna?
Friis
He's the one who made it up. He talked about when Jansky was there with all my people, [John E.] Pfeiffer asked me, "Was he a scientist?" I said, "No, Jansky was just a very good electrical engineer and he was just as good as my other people." There were eight other people there. And that's what Pfeiffer couldn't understand. Right away, he thought it was crazy because he was sure Jansky should have been a big scientist, right away.
Sullivan
Then as far as you know Jansky never made any attempt to extend the work beyond what he did?
Friis
That's right. Then that other fellow, you know, another man started in.
Sullivan
You mean [Grote] Reber?
Friis
Yes, Reber.
Sullivan
Oh, yes, I've talked to Reber quite a bit.
Friis
Jansky liked him very much.
Sullivan
What was Jansky's reaction to Reber's work?
Friis
He liked it very much. They got together. And they liked each other very much.
Sullivan
Did you ever meet Reber or visit his antenna?
Friis
No. Jansky did, I know.
Sullivan
And still Jansky didn't care about having his own 30 foot antenna like Reber's, or anything?
Friis
No.
Sullivan
So he more or less apparently had decided that that was enough and he was going to move on to low-noise receivers and things like this?
Friis
Right.
Sullivan
Now during World War II you mentioned that, of course, there was pressing radar work to be done but I was wondering why when you had much higher sensitivity and larger antennas and so forth and higher frequencies, why you didn't try and sneak in a project, look at the Sun or something like that. Something like [George] Southworth did.
Friis
Oh, I don't know, I'm not sure.
Sullivan
It just didn't occur to you?
Friis
Well, there were so many things. And I remember during World War II, the Navy particularly wanted to find the direction from which a signal from a submarine comes. Jansky was working on it.
Sullivan
On direction finding from submarine radar?
Friis
That's right.
Sullivan
But there were no attempts to detect the sun or anything that were unsuccessful that may not have been published anywhere.
Friis
No, I don't think so.
Sullivan
Ok. Can you tell me a little bit about what Jansky's reaction was to radio astronomy after the War? Was he delighted to see it expanding like it was?
Friis
Oh, yes. He thought it was wonderful.
Sullivan
But still he was content to stay at Bell Labs and not do radio astronomy?
Friis
I think so, yes.
Sullivan
But I guess he was growing quite ill by this time.
Friis
Oh, yes, he was.
Sullivan
Now you mentioned in the article that he wrote a report on a meeting he went to at NRL [Naval Research Laboratory] on radio astronomy in 1948.
Friis
’48?
Sullivan
Right.
Friis
I've forgotten it.
Sullivan
And you say that he wrote a detailed report on this conference. I was wondering if it's possible for you to find a copy of this? Do you have any archives?
Friis
No, I don't think I can. I'd forgotten about that.
Sullivan
Do you have any archives of your own that you could possibly look through?
Friis
No.
Sullivan
Have you deposited them anywhere?
Friis
No. Did you say 1948?
Sullivan
Yes.
Friis
I'd forgotten about that '48 meeting.
Sullivan
You mention it here in your article. I've never heard of it myself. It must have been an informal conference. But it would be very interesting to see what Jansky's opinions were about radio astronomy in 1948. Do you have any idea where I might get a copy...
Friis
Well, you can try Schelling, he might be able to do something more.
Sullivan
Ok.
Friis
Schelling's address...
Sullivan
That's the end of the interview with Harald Friis over the phone between U.W. and Palo Alto, California on 3 February ’76 and that’s the end of this side of the tape also.