T. Kochu Menon Interviewed by Kenneth I. Kellermann, 27 July 2012

Kellermann: 00:03

Okay. Ken Kellermann here with Kochu Menon, Dave Hogg, and Sierra Smith. It's July 27 [2012]. Kochu, we're not trying to do personal interviews of the life of people or anything. But it's NRAO that we're interested in, the history of NRAO and how it got started. And in your case, we also want to talk about the Harvard days, because so many people who played a big role in the first days, the beginning of NRAO came from Harvard and so perhaps we can start there. But to put thing in perspective, can you tell us when you came to Harvard and where that was with respect to all the other people that we know, Dave Heeschen, Bill Howard, Cam Wade, Nan Dieter [Conklin], May Kassim, relative seniority?

Menon: 01:08

When I first became a graduate student in the Astronomy Department - I transferred from Applied Science to the Astronomy Department - Whipple was the chairman of the department. Just before I started in the fall term, I went to see Whipple as the chairman of the department. What background--

Kellermann: 01:41

What year was that?

Menon: 01:42

It was in 53 summer. What my preparation, what was expected of my background in order to be a graduate student in astronomy. So he gave me a copy of the volume which was the sort of the commemoration of the 50 years of Yerkes Observatory, what was called the Hynek volume, a series of articles by all the Yerkes people of previous 50 years and gave to me and said, "You read through it during the summer and you will be a graduate student. You probably will go through the graduate school. No problem." At the same time, he told me that a radio astronomy project had already started and I should go and talk to Bart Bok about the project. And I went to Harvard College Observatory and met with Bok. Bok said, "Oh, you should go and visit Agassiz Station. We are building the telescope there." So I arranged with Doc Ewen, and Jack Campbell came and took me to Agassiz Station. That was the first time I went. When I went there, I saw the 24-foot building and on top of it there were two people. One was rubbing the axle of the telescope smoothing it out and the other one was doing something mechanical on top also. And these two were Heeschen and Lilley and they were the first graduate students recruited into the Radio Astronomy Program. So that's first time I was introduced. And I went downstairs and Doc Ewen told me, "Your assignment in your first term, sign up for a course. Your assignment is to write an operations manual for the receiver." And so in longhand, I went to through the circuit diagrams and the operations and the whole thing. I wrote it, the operations manual for the receiver. And that was the only one ever written for that receiver and it stayed there until it was closed down. And so then that was '53 at fall term I started, and there was no other graduate student other than Campbell Wade who was already there. And the story is, from what Doc Ewen told me, that Campbell Wade was the one who was egging on Bok to get into radio astronomy, and even though all the optical astronomers discouraged him. "At this age, why do you want to get into this new field," which at that time was not supposed to have a future.

Kellermann: 05:50

Dave Heeschen told us this, confirmed this. Yeah.

Hogg: 05:54

Yeah, they told me, too.

Menon: 05:55

Yeah. It is not--

Kellermann: 05:56

This is not widely known I think.

Menon: 05:59

That there's no future. Why do you want to get into this? So it's--

Kellermann: 06:04

Who said that specifically?

Menon: 06:06

In general.

Kellermann: 06:07

In general.

Menon: 06:07

In general, some of the astronomers of that day. I think there was even a card which Walter Baade sent to Bok. He had shown me that card in, it's a postcard, and it said, "Bok, why do you want to, at your age, get into this branch of astronomy? There's no future." Something to that effect.

Hogg: 06:32

And [inaudible] had already been found by them, right?

Kellermann: 06:35

Yeah, filed, done.

Menon: 06:36

Yeah, yeah. I think that was the general view.

Kellermann: 06:42

[inaudible] was done.

Menon: 06:43

Yeah. But as I said, they were looking for that spiral structure and therefore, it's solved, what more is there to be done? That was the attitude.

Kellermann: 06:53

In your interview with Woody, you mentioned this and you said you had a copy of that letter or postcard. Might you still have it?

Menon: 07:00

Well, I'm not sure I have it because when Bok wrote to Australia he told me, "I just [inaudible]. Go through all the correspondence and papers and take whatever what you want." But I don't have much space to keep anything. So there are hardly anything survived that transition. But Campbell Wade was bothering Bok about wanting to go into radio astronomy. So he sent him to Purcell. I think Purcell sent him to Doc Ewen. So Doc said, "After a few times of interaction he called up Bart Bok and said, "If you're really interested why do you send an undergraduate to me."

Kellermann: 08:06

Oh, he was an undergraduate?

Menon: 08:09

Campbell Wade was an undergraduate at the time it first started because he was in his final year or just finishing at Harvard. "Send somebody senior to talk to me about it." And that's how it got started. And then Bok put together, went to, he could not say Mrs. Agassiz to get some money for the project.

Hogg: 08:45

Campbell was older because of his military service.

Menon: 08:49

Yes, yes.

Kellermann: 08:50

Yeah.

Menon: 08:51

And he had little more exposure to at least some-- elementary parts of electronics whereas Dave Heeschen he knew how to grease all the trucks on the parking lot of the-- where he was during his recruitment. I mean those two years, but he did not have any exposure to any other aspects during the military life. But Campbell Wade had some exposure to electronics, so he--

Hogg: 09:31

He was an artillery officer. So he might have radar and telecommunications.

Menon: 09:40

So--

Hogg: 09:40

That's why he was deaf.

Kellermann: 09:42

I didn't know they were [inaudible].

Hogg: 09:44

One ear [inaudible].

Kellermann: 09:49

I didn't know that.

Menon: 09:50

And Lilley also did not have much of a background in electronics at all. So Doc Ewen -

Kellermann: 10:00

What about you?

Menon: 10:01

But I had fair amount of it. I had been building the transmitters for ionospheric work all from scratch. We got in India when I started as a Research Assistant in the Department of Communication Engineering, a huge amount of World War II surplus equipment and we had to order all these from a-- catalogs as thick as this. I didn't know what was what. And they were being sold to the education institutions in India at almost [inaudible] prices. One of them was the most advanced radar built during World War II which was SCR584. It was a 10 centimeter radar, and the original package with the parachute-dropping equipment and all that. We got the whole thing. I think we paid at that time the equivalent of about $25 for the whole thing. But the Westinghouse which built had charged the Federal Government $50,000 for each package. We got it for about $25. I had put it together, so I had some amount of background. And myself and my fellow student, our assignment was to build an ionospheric transmitter for studying the--

Hogg: 11:45

[inaudible].

Menon: 11:47

Yes. Because my professor [inaudible] his background was in ionospheric transmission, properties of the ionosphere and things like that, and it just so happened at that time, Olof Rydbeck came through India. He had come for the same Indian Science Congress which Taffy Bowen had come, for the same meeting. So Rydbeck came to the lab and he saw our [inaudible] assembly of the equipment and he gave a talk on ionospheric work, because they were taught this so-called [inaudible] splitting of the ionospheric echo. So I had some experience in hardware. So Doc Ewen said you're the hardware man and Jack Campbell was the only technician--

Hogg: 12:51

Professional.

Menon: 12:52

Yeah, and--

Kellermann: 12:53

Tell us more about Jack because he was a graduate student, wasn't he?

Menon: 12:57

Jack?

Kellermann: 12:58

Yeah.

Menon: 12:58

No, no. He worked for Doc Ewen, Ewen-Knight Corporation, and the company was in existence at that time and he worked as the technician for the company, building other things in addition to this, but this was his major assignment. So it was Jack who used to give me a ride from Cambridge, here, to the outskirts of Cambridge and he used to give me a ride to Agassiz Station. And so, Dave Heeschen by that time, the receiver was in operation in the dish also just started operating. Of course, there was not a pressure, but hope that something very interesting will come through and the receiver technology, particularly the DC comparison radiometer that had never been tried before and how it would work [inaudible] operation. But it worked even though it took an hour, hour and a half for a one-megahertz scan. But it worked. It was a very clever scheme. I mean, I'm still trying to get the name of the [inaudible].

Hogg: 14:31

I think it was Scharow. There was a great physicist, Scharow, S-C-H-A-R-O-W. Was it that guy? I shouldn't have trying said that [inaudible].

Menon: 14:48

It was in my thesis. I had given the reference to that paper which he wrote in the [inaudible] site it became [inaudible] he wrote the -.

Kellermann: 15:02

We can track it down.

Menon: 15:03

Yeah.

Hogg: 15:04

The ionosphere [sounder?] which you built in India. It was a sub frequency?

Menon: 15:10

Yes.

Hogg: 15:11

So that technology for [switching?] frequency that was [inaudible].

Menon: 15:14

It was not any electronics switching like that. It was--

Hogg: 15:21

Mechanical [inaudible]?

Menon: 15:23

Mechanical.

Hogg: 15:24

Capacity?

Menon: 15:24

Yeah. Yeah.

Hogg: 15:25

[inaudible].

Menon: 15:28

No, [inaudible] it's a very complicated system. What was used was-- yes, it was fed to [inaudible] low-frequency [inaudible]. I think it was 450 kilohertz and something [inaudible] in those days for shortwave receivers.

Kellermann: 15:53

All AM receivers. Yeah.

Menon: 15:55

All AM receivers. It was [helicopter?] communication receiver and the scanning was the L-band cavity, which was a World War II product, which Doc Ewen had obtained from somewhere. A hole was drilled on the surface of the cylinder and the particular shaft was put in and it was driven by a small motor. So as you clenched the thing into it, the oscillator cavity, the frequency of the oscillator was changed. So the local oscillator frequency for mixing was changed by moving the shaft up and down into the L band cavity. And what came out after the second conversion into the [helicopter?] receiver then was tracked again with the motor driving the dial in the [helicopter?] receiver. So it was a tracking that and there was a servo control which went from there to the plunger. So the plunger was changing the oscillator frequency. And then as the IF changed instead of-- the scanning actually was done in the helicopter receiver and there was a servo to control the total scanning.

Menon: 17:54

And that was a very tricky affair because you had to scan it and get on the side of the wave of the band shape of the second oscillator-- I mean second mixer. And it was a very tricky thing to lock it. You had to bring it and then switch it on, and there were only a couple of us who could do it. And so that was the introduction to that particular receiver, but it worked even though it took a long time for scans. And Dave-  And as far as the topics which were interesting was, nobody knew what exactly to look for. I mean, it is true that Leiden and the Australians had obtained signals, but what to do with those, what to expect from those? And with the background in industrial matter Bok had-- I mean, he felt that there should be interesting things if you look in the plane of the Milky Way. But he had a fairly clear policy that he will not suggest a topic to any graduate student. He has to come up by themselves. And I think throughout his career, he rarely published a paper with his student. Rarely. He had a few, but it was rare. I published only just one, and that took not because he suggested a topic, he actually contributed, and he did the galaxy counts for determine the absorption of those dark clouds. And I did the 21 centimeter. And Bob Lawrence who came from Denver and from Bureau.

Hogg: 20:19

Bureau of Standards.

Menon: 20:22

National Bureau of Standards.

Kellermann: 20:24

Boulder.

Menon: 20:25

Boulder.

Kellermann: 20:25

Yeah.

Menon: 20:26

He was sent to Harvard to work for a year or something like that.

Kellermann: 20:31

No, actually it was in Washington. The Bureau of Standards is in Washington.

Menon: 20:36

But he came as a visitor sort of for a year. So we published a paper, Bob Lawrence and Menon. But Bok always liked the idea of the alphabetical order of the authors with the--

Hogg: 20:58

Very favorable.

Menon: 21:01

But rarely he published. Actually, I don't think he ever published anything with Heeschen or Lilley as a co-author. Or for that matter anyone else in the radio astronomy program. As a co-author he never published anything.

Kellermann: 21:21

You mentioned Tom Matthews earlier.

Menon: 21:24

Yeah. Tom Matthews was already a graduate student. He had done his masters at Indiana I think. Yeah. So he joined just about same time. But he was a sort of freelancer in the sense that he didn't have to work for a degree, kind of. As you know, Matthew's clan in Toronto. Did not work for a living. So he had very wide interests, read very widely, and can suggest topics for research to anybody. But he will take his own time.

Kellermann: 22:11

I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with his family background.

Menon: 22:15

Well, we used to joke that Matthews owned half the mines in Canada. The Matthews clan we used to call him. He came from a very wealthy background in Canada.

Kellermann: 22:32

But you say he didn't have to work. I mean, he still had to work for his degree. He didn't have any financial--

Menon: 22:40

Incentive.

Kellermann: 22:41

Right. He paid his own tuition or something.

Menon: 22:43

No, no. He paid his own tuition. And he was one of the few graduates who also owned a car and he lived very well in an apartment. Not like other graduate students. But he was such a nice person that he got along very well when he was-- we were particularly friendly because he was still a bachelor at that time. During the observing and all that, before I had a car, he gave me rides. So he had a very extensive background in astronomy.

Kellermann: 23:29

And his thesis wasn't in radio astronomy, was it?

Menon: 23:32

Yes, yes.

Kellermann: 23:33

Oh, it was? What did he do? What was it?

Menon: 23:35

The galactic structure and the [inaudible], if I recall correctly. He published it. It was an ApJ paper he published. But he was very well informed on optical astronomy. Very strong background.

Hogg: 23:58

Was he an undergraduate at Toronto?

Menon: 24:00

No he I know he had a master's from Indiana. Maybe he was originally from Toronto.

Hogg: 24:11

Right. That sticks in my mind because I think I remember the Toronto people speaking--

Menon: 24:15

Yeah, he may Have done his undergraduate at Toronto and then went to Indiana to do his masters. And I think that's where he met Ann, his wife to be. And she also came and she worked as a research assistant to Shapley.

Kellermann: 24:41

I saw Tom a month or so ago.

Menon: 24:44

Yeah, I have not seen him for a long time.

Kellermann: 24:46

I know, neither had I for about many decades. He's still living in the--

Menon: 24:51

Maryland.

Kellermann: 24:52

--Maryland area, and--

Menon: 24:54

Years ago, some maybe 20, 30 years ago, his hair was sort of getting white even at that time, but last time I saw him, it was so white that I couldn't recognize him.

Kellermann: 25:09

I recognized him right away, yeah, but then he played a big role in the discovery of quasars. And that's why I was talking to him.

Menon: 25:15

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Kellermann: 25:17

And that's why I was asking you about--

Menon: 25:18

Well, we had the thesis exams same day. No, not the same day. At the same time because the other person-- I had the exam in the morning. In the afternoon, there was another person. I don't want to tell about [laughter] because he became notorious in Washington.

Hogg: 25:46

Oh, it was [inaudible], particularly.

Menon: 25:49

[inaudible].

Hogg: 25:52

He died in the last year.

Menon: 25:54

Yeah, he died.

Hogg: 25:55

In the last year.

Menon: 26:01

But no, Tom had a little earlier-- because Tom was in a little bit of a hurry because he had already a postdoc at Caltech, so he wanted to go and join. So in '50s--

Kellermann: 26:22

What year was that then?

Menon: 26:25

It must have been in the spring of '56.

Kellermann: 26:30

That's when you did your [inaudible].

Menon: 26:36

But Dave had already been appointed as the, like I said, radio astronomer. So he was staying. He had not moved to-- he was still staying in [Ayer?], Massachusetts. So I used to see him daily because he was staying at the [inaudible] cottage at the observatory. So we interact a great deal at that time. But of course, just about the time they came back from Ohio-- I mean, Wesleyan University, and took over the job. Talk of a national radio astronomy program had already been in the works, even though none of us were involved directly. All the big wheels were talking about it.

Kellermann: 27:49

This was '50-?

Menon: 27:51

'54, '55, in that period. Even Bok was not too closely involved in that. It was like Menzel, Whipple. And like [inaudible], I'm not sure Purcell l was too closely involved at the beginning stages of that. There was a famous radio astronomy meeting in Washington, I think, arranged by DTM, maybe.

Hogg: 28:33

Yeah, because of--

Menon: 28:34

Merle Tuve.

Hogg: 28:35

--Merle Tuve.

Menon: 28:36

He took a very great interest.

Kellermann: 28:39

That that was in '54? '54, right.

Menon: 28:42

Yeah, Merle Tuve took a great deal of active part in that.

Kellermann: 28:47

Jessie Greenstein, too.

Menon: 28:48

Jessie Greenstein.

Kellermann: 28:50

Yeah, we know quite a bit about that from their papers. In your interview with Woody, you gave the impression that the initiative for this national facility originated at Harvard with people you just mentioned, whereas some of the other stuff that we've seen, or at least I have the impression, that it may have originated with Berkner, who then-- Who asked who? [laughter]

Menon: 29:28

I think there initially-- to at least talk of a bigger radio astronomy program like that, I think Merle Tuve was more active because of the scientific interest, whereas, maybe because of the Washington circle contacts he had contacted, like Berkner maybe, with regard to this national program, who would set it up, who would organize it. And I said, I don't think either Menzel or Whipple, certainly not Bok, was familiar with the national power structure enough to think of who might initiate it and who might operate it like that. I'm sure it was Merle Tuve who was more familiar with the possibilities of the national-- as to who would operate such a thing.

Hogg: 30:39

Yeah, but he was later on against it, right?

Menon: 30:45

Yeah. It didn't go through at that time. But then, certainly, somewhere in 1954 or '55, that it suddenly bubbled up, this idea of a national center.

Kellermann: 31:07

Well, Menzel wrote this report. That was April of '55, I think, right? My impression is he was asked to write that report by Berkner.

Menon: 31:17

But--

Kellermann: 31:18

That's not clear. That's what I was trying to establish where the--

Menon: 31:21

Well, I--

Kellermann: 31:21

--where the initiative came from.

Menon: 31:23

I don't know because I never met Berkner at that time, or I had even heard about Brookhaven National Labs. It's possible that-- Menzel was a commander in the U.S. Navy during World War II. [inaudible] was an admiral. So they may have had contacts from that period. It was not through any scientific common interests or anything like that. And Whipple also was involved in some later activities towards the World War II period, whereas Bok was starting [inaudible] at all.

Hogg: 32:35

Was there not come common interest between Berkner and his-- didn't he do ionospheric stuff and [crosstalk]?

Menon: 32:41

Berkner had the scientific background to think of radio program because of his ionospheric work.

Kellermann: 32:49

He also worked with Merle Tuve at DTM in radio astronomy. That's where they presumably got to not like each other.

Menon: 32:59

But not in radio-- Berkner didn't--

Kellermann: 33:00

He did a little bit.

Menon: 33:01

I see. I see. I didn't--

Kellermann: 33:05

It was mostly ionosphere.

Hogg: 33:07

But at this time, there was all of the development of the solar ionosphere connection, so I would have thought the solar people would know about the ionosphere.

Menon: 33:18

Yes, yes, there was-- I mean because of that background, solar people were very much involved with providing the information for the ionospheric work and all that. And you will still also receive that would enable Naval Research Lab, NRL, people already had started work because of that 50-foot dish. They had already started thinking about it, but even though they had not actually started other looking at the sun.

Kellermann: 34:00

They seem not to have been involved in any of the discussions about--

Menon: 34:02

No, they were not involved. They were not.

Hogg: 34:05

Which is kind of curious now when you think about it.

Menon: 34:08

I think John Hagen had already thought about it, but there was no-- actually, it was somewhat surprising.

Kellermann: 34:22

Well, Hagen was involved. Of course, that's right, I forgot about that.

Menon: 34:26

Because Ed Lilley, after Dave and Ed finished their thesis, that was in '54, '55. It was very quick. I mean, once the observations became available, the two had two separate topics to work on, Lilley and Dave. And so they finished their thesis very quickly, and Ed Lilley was a little more energetic, outspoken type of person [laughter] and so could get a job more easily at NRL, whereas Dave was little holding back. And Bok used to talk about there were not that many opportunities in radio astronomy [laughter] as such, but the astronomer at the Wesleyan University, was it Thornton Page?

Hogg: 35:41

Yeah.

Menon: 35:41

No. Who was it?

Hogg: 35:42

Well, he's not here. Page is in Illinois or Northwestern.

Menon: 35:47

Yes, but not Thornton Page. Who was there? There was an optical astronomer.

Hogg: 35:56

Where was van Biesbroeck?

Menon: 35:58

Van Biesbroeck, no. He was at Yerkes. No. Maybe it was Thornton Page. I cannot recall now. He was there at Ohio-- I mean, at Wesleyan University.

Hogg: 36:23

Connecticut, Wesleyan.

Menon: 36:25

Huh?

Hogg: 36:25

Connecticut, Wesleyan.

Menon: 36:26

In Connecticut. So Dave was appointed as the assistant professor there.

Kellermann: 36:33

Oh, I thought it was Ohio.

Hogg: 36:35

No.

Menon: 36:36

No, no, Connecticut. Yeah, yeah, Connecticut.

Kellermann: 36:40

That's where Dave went?

Menon: 36:41

Yeah, that's where he went. That's where he went.

Hogg: 36:46

Well, you almost have to put the state in because there are two or three Wesleyans.

Kellermann: 36:49

Yeah, I assumed it was Ohio.

Menon: 36:53

They have a Wesleyan University in Connecticut.

Hogg: 36:57

That was just down the road.

Kellermann: 36:58

Yeah, I can tell you.

Menon: 37:00

I think there was a well-known astronomer, I mean, of the same age group as Bok and [others?] who was at Wesleyan.

Kellermann: 37:11

Thornton Page was in the Midwest.

Hogg: 37:15

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Menon: 37:17

Thornton Page was at [inaudible] for a while, I know, because he did his thesis on the [inaudible].

Kellermann: 37:24

That's all right. That's not--

Menon: 37:25

Okay. So they went there, but he didn't find anything exciting going on. But then suddenly this NRAO sort of thing [inaudible] there was a lot of talk about hiring people, I don't know what went down with [inaudible] didn't know anything about what was going on.

Kellermann: 37:56

Yeah, that's the main thing we wanted to hear, what you overheard--

Menon: 38:00

Yeah, it is--

Kellermann: 38:01

From Menzel and Bok and --

Menon: 38:03

Bok had written a fairly long report as to the possibilities of radio astronomy. I used to have a copy, but I--

Kellermann: 38:16

We have it. We have a copy of it.

Menon: 38:17

You have a copy.

Kellermann: 38:19

That was in Scientific American.

Hogg: 38:21

I think so.

Kellermann: 38:24

On a national observatory, or something like that.

Menon: 38:26

Yeah, yeah. And then he went, [inaudible] exactly how the radio astronomy project got started at Harvard, because already the money was coming in, and the position was created. Mrs. Agassiz gave the money for [inaudible] it. She said but only one year, and that was a salary of $5,000 a year.

Kellermann: 39:09

For you?

Menon: 39:11

No, for Dave.

Kellermann: 39:12

Oh, for Dave?

Menon: 39:13

For Dave.

Hogg: 39:17

That was good money back then!.

Kellermann: 39:19

I mean, that was in addition to her or after she had paid for the telescope?

Menon: 39:27

Yes, yes, yes. The telescope was already under construction at that time.

Hogg: 39:36

Had Sam Goldstein come by then?

Menon: 39:38

Sam came later.

Hogg: 39:40

Later, oh.

Menon: 39:41

He was already working, from Stanford. He was working with the solar project, solar project in Texas, Harvard station, Texas. Only after he finished his degree with Stanford from the project in Texas, then he came to Harvard. So then when Dave had been there for a year, and NRAO, the whole thing became firmer, and who are going to be the first staff for this. As I recall it, even though I was not in the actual discussions. I did not even know that such things were being talked about. Suddenly, Bok said that Dave was coming back to- I’m sorry, Dave had been at Harvard, that Dave was going to be appointed to NRAO staff. I understand, there were going to be only two staff members, possibly two. There were two people, [inaudible]. One was from NRL.

Kellermann: 41:35

McClain?

Menon: 41:36

And McClain. They auditioned. From the eighteen, they were selected. Of course, it was that McClain had a lot more experience in electronics. But whether you want an astronomer or a physicist engineer, they've got each other. That affected my status at Harvard. Because I mean, I had already the postdoctorate at Berkeley, I mean, agreed to. And I had even booked my flight to go to Berkeley. I had not submitted the thesis at, in fact, that time. Then I went to the immigration people in Boston. And I told them that I have a student visa. I have to change to some other type of visa if I'm going as a postdoc at Berkeley. The immigration officer, he said, "Why do you want to go from here in Boston? Can't you stay on here? The student visa is a very good type of visa to have. [Go and find out?]. We want you to stay here."

Kellermann: 43:07

The immigration guy said that?

Menon: 43:08

The immigration told me, "I would rather have you stay here instead of going to that place in California also."

Kellermann: 43:18

Is it a foreign-- [laughter]

Menon: 43:20

Something like that. So I came back that afternoon and told Bok. Bok had already written to Donald Shane who was the director of Lick. Because I had arranged with George Herbig. I was going to work on [T Tauri?] stars. And Bok said," Well, now you can't go because Dave is leaving else. There's nobody to run the telescope. I need someone who could twiddle the knobs. [laughter] So you have to stay here. So I said, "Okay."

Kellermann: 43:59

That would have been '50--

Menon: 44:03

Late '55 early '56, at least six months before I was to submit the thesis. Actually, I had finished my thesis by '55, fall. But Bok told me don't submit the thesis yet because then you'll have to go. And we won't have anyone to run the place. [laughter] So I put it away. And started to work on some other projects. And Dave was appointed to NRAO. Of course, there was no place to go to. It was only there for organization. He stayed on--

Kellermann: 44:51

It wasn't in 1955, '56-- The contract was signed in '56. It was November of '56? Yes.

Menon: 45:00

But Dave stayed on at Harvard.

Kellermann: 45:05

I think initially he was a consultant to AUI.

Menon: 45:08

Oh. I see. But he was assigned his position. And I got, I was appointed even though I had no degree [laughter]. How would people do such things in those days? I had a letter from Menzel, "It's unusual for us to offer you this job so well ahead of your submitting the thesis, with the hope that you will submit the thesis [laughter]." So I stayed on, and Dave stayed on in Ayers, he had a house there. So he stayed on for at least another year. I think Dave Jr. was born Ayers. I mean, he had Lisa already born, and David, Jr. was born in Ayers, Massachusetts. So Dave used to come to the Agassiz Station and it's that sort of an office like that.  Then he finally found, Green Bank selected and all that. And Bok was involved a little more in that also in the sense he did visit Green Bank. And he tells in great detail the story of visiting Green Bank and going to Trent’s Store and all that.

Kellermann: 46:58

Tell us more.

Menon: 47:01

Well, [inaudible] foreigners coming into Green Bank. Someone with [inaudible]. Certainly, you could not have any feeling other than he doesn't belong there. So, went in the store and asked to buy something. And he obviously didn't speak the local language. He had difficulty communicating. And he wrote a letter after that visit, and Dave--

Kellermann: 47:47

A letter to who about what?

Menon: 47:49

He wrote a letter to us, the group, after visit.

Hogg: 47:57

Terrible visit to a foreign country?

Menon: 48:00

[laughter] He does, visit to a foreign country. [crosstalk]--

Kellermann: 48:06

What did he say in this letter?

Menon: 48:09

He was of course very enthusiastic because he was used to living in isolated places. I mean, Bloemfontein in South Africa, I don't think was any better place than Green Bank. So he lived there for a year, and he had also gone visiting there many times. So for him, it was not quite as-- the astronomers of that time, radio astronomers, and for them it was much more difficult. Because many of the people, people like Whipple and Menzel and others, they had not lived in isolated areas for a long time since their graduate student days. So for them, it would have been a great [inaudible]. But as for Bok, he was enthusiastic.

Kellermann: 49:02

Well, he was enthusiastic about everything.

Menon: 49:04

Yeah, well, so he gave a good report, and I don't know whether that influenced Dave to move from Ayers,  now this not particularly exciting place for him to live.

Kellermann: 49:24

Before we started, you started to talk about Bart Bok and his relation with other faculty and-

Menon: 49:34

Well, Bok, you know he was a pacifist during World War II, and as well as Harlow Shapley. He was a pacifist too.

Kellermann: 49:56

What do you mean by a pacifist?

Menon: 49:59

That means he did not engage or enroll in any active military service.

Kellermann: 50:08

Did he have any choice, I mean?

Menon: 50:12

Well, the only thing Bok did during World War II related to the military was he taught a course navigation to servicemen who might get lost.

Kellermann: 50:27

Sorry. Where was he at the time?

Menon: 50:30

At Harvard.

Kellermann: 50:31

Oh. Okay. I was thinking he was in The Netherlands, that's why I said did he have any choice. Okay, so.

Menon: 50:36

Yeah, Bok had come as a postdoc to Harvard in 1920.

Kellermann: 50:41

I should have known that. Yeah.

Menon: 50:44

Yeah, late '20s.

Kellermann: 50:48

Okay. Sorry.

Menon: 50:50

Yeah. So Bok was not involved. He had been particularly influenced by people like [Minette?] regarding his political education. Kapteyn, [Minette?] and the rest who had very strong views, but since Shapley and Bok did not get involved directly with any military work he was not considered by people like Menzel, Whipple, who took very active part-- I mean, in mostly in research. Sure, or related work, but not-- and Dick Thomas used to tell me that Menzel was a superlative astrophysicist. And World War II started. They said, because his publications on [inaudible] nebulae really set the standards. But then he started, when he started to work during World War II, he started moving with this admirals and generals and all that. He lost his head. That was his last statement.

Kellermann: 52:22

Sorry, who said that?

Menon: 52:24

Dick Thomas.

Hogg: 52:27

Well, in the middle to late '30s, Menzel, Whipple, and [Aller? Allen?] did all of these cases, even the transfer of radiation.

Menon: 52:37

Baker and Menzel. Those papers, you need to know the standard papers. We had to read them. Yeah.

Hogg: 52:53

It's a sign of [inaudible], right? They had been elected for the [inaudible].

Menon: 52:58

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So once he started moving in the high circles, he-- toward the time I was there Menzel's work was in the periphery. He never really got into astrophysics and such again.

Kellermann: 53:23

He was in the department chair, wasn't he?

Menon: 53:26

He was the director of the observatory, I mean, which Bok had hoped to inherit but didn't.

Kellermann: 53:35

Why?

Menon: 53:37

Again because Menzel had connections with the high level people during the World War II days. And already to some extent, Harvard wasn't bad. It was considered part of what you would call the-- McCarthy used to call him the Kremlin on the Charles. [laughter]

Hogg: 54:18

I had thought that part of Bok’s problem was that he supported Shapley in Shapley's time of tribulation and got a bad name with the upper echelon of Harvard because of that.

Menon: 54:35

Yes, that's quite true.

Hogg: 54:38

I asked Dave that. He wasn't sure if that was true, but that was what I got from him. [inaudible].

Menon: 54:46

I mean, Shapley certainly got into-- but Shapley did it very openly.

Hogg: 54:51

Was he a Quaker?

Menon: 54:54

He was not a Quaker as such. He did not really have any open-- I mean, he was not a Quaker, but as far as-- I mean, he was such a close friend of Pope Pius. And actually, that was what finally got him out of trouble, because McCarthy, when he confronted Shapley in the secret hearings and was banging him about his views, Shapley, he said, "Senator, oh, I'm glad you have such views. Unfortunately, there are also people who are not so unfriendly with regard to my views," and he produced the letter from Pope Pius, and said-- he said, "Dear Dr. Shapley," and very friendly personal letter from the Pope. I mean, he was Catholic [laughter] senator from Wisconsin beating up someone who was a close friend of Pope. That didn't go very well.

Kellermann: 56:11

And he Bok did an oral interview with the American Institute of Physics, and there he said that he had been offered the position of the NRAO director, but he had already had agreed to go to Australia. Do you know anything about this, or?

Menon: 56:34

I don't know quite the sequence because, '56, I was appointed Dave's position. Early in '56, I got the appointment letter from Harvard trustees, I mean, the Society of Fellows. And then '56 was the Radio Astronomy Symposium in Cambridge. Is that right?

Kellermann: 57:20

Oh, '55. The one that Bok organized?

Menon: 57:23

Oh, '55. Yeah, '55. It was '55 Radio Astronomy Symposium--

Kellermann: 57:30

In January.

Menon: 57:31

--in January. Joe Pawsey took him for a walk and sort of sounded him out.

Kellermann: 57:39

Wait. Oh, about going to Australia?

Menon: 57:42

Yeah, about going to Australia. So he had not thought of Australia until then. But he kept quiet about his thinking and all that, and never talked about it because all the time we discussed, he was talking about the future of the radio astronomy project at Harvard. But after I was appointed in '56, early in '56, sometime during the next few months, I'm not sure about the date. He called me, and he said the NRAO directorship and the Australian one, there was some conflict in his mind as to whether the NRAO directorship will come through, whether he would get the support. And I understood from the way he said it that there were people who did not want him as the director, and [inaudible] was trying to get him out of the entanglement and get out, and going out to Australia would be a good thing in that sense because he gets out of this whole problems at Harvard. And so I don't know who told him that he would not be a candidate. I'm not sure who told him that. And then he agreed to go to Australia.

Kellermann: 59:51

A little bit surprising that the approach came from Pawsey because Pawsey was with CSIRO in Sydney, and I'm not aware of any close relationship with Mount Stromlo or Australia nationally or [crosstalk]--

Menon: 01:00:07

Well, that's what-- Joe Pawsey took him up for a while during that radio astronomy. It was then. It was Joe Pawsey who thought-- they were talking about Mount Stromlo. Wooley was retiring. And then suddenly, Joe Pawsey popped the question, "How about you coming over and taking over?"

Kellermann: 01:00:40

Right. But that meeting wasn't '55. It was earlier, wasn't it? The two meetings.

Smith: 01:00:47

But it was '54, the one in Washington. That's the DTM--

Kellermann: 01:00:51

Yeah. Okay. Just a few weeks before that, it was the meeting-- yeah, it's '54. There was a meeting that Bok organized in Cambridge. It was at the-- I call it the triple-A S squared. Because it was sponsored by the American Association for the Advancement--

Menon: 01:01:15

Oh, is it radio astronomy?

Kellermann: 01:01:17

Yeah. And it was held in the building of the American Institute of Cambridge. The American Academy of Arts and Sciences.

Menon: 01:01:30

Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Merle Tuve and Grote was there.

Kellermann: 01:01:36

No. He sent his paper because he said he was too busy observing to come.

Menon: 01:01:45

Oh, oh. I see. Yeah. I attended that.

Kellermann: 01:01:49

You did?

Menon: 01:01:49

Yes, yes. Yeah. I attended that meeting. I was a student.

Kellermann: 01:01:52

Yeah, but still.

Menon: 01:01:53

I attended that meeting. I remember Merle Tuve, Bok, and-- there were [inaudible]. It was not just radio astronomy. There were some other talks too at that.

Kellermann: 01:02:09

It was the day after Christmas, actually.

Menon: 01:02:13

Yeah. Yeah. I remember I attended that as a student. We were all--

Kellermann: 01:02:19

And it was very cold?

Menon: 01:02:20

Yeah.

Kellermann: 01:02:21

It was minus 20 below or something.

Menon: 01:02:23

Yeah. We all drove down to Boston. Yeah, I attended that meeting. I mean, I was seeing these big names for the first time.

Kellermann: 01:02:34

You don't have any pictures or programs?

Menon: 01:02:37

No, no, no. I didn't think I have been in that kind of thing for a while [laughter]. Yeah. I remember that meeting.

Kellermann: 01:02:46

Yeah. Well, there's that meeting I think. And then the one a few weeks later in Washington that really started the ball rolling, national observatory.

Menon: 01:02:55

Yeah, Boston meeting, I recall just the way, way out in the periphery.

Kellermann: 01:03:09

What about Frank Drake? He was a student.

Menon: 01:03:12

Yeah. Frank was a year later than I joined. Not the same year.

Kellermann: 01:03:21

He was a year later than you?

Menon: 01:03:23

I think it was later, right? When I started my astronomy in '53 fall, I think he came in '54. He and Mary Jane.

Hogg: 01:03:39

May. May Kassim?

Menon: 01:03:43

No, May Kassim was the same year as I did. Yeah. May Kassim and Mary Conley. She was Mary Sandage later. Mary Conley was the same year. She actually had been there a year earlier, just like Tom Matthews. Tom Matthews and Mary Conley they had been in [inaudible] student in Indiana before they came to Harvard.

Kellermann: 01:04:14

What about Nan Dieter?

Menon: 01:04:16

Nan Dieter came with Drake.

Hogg: 01:04:25

Mary Conley probably got to know Allan [Sandage] and [inaudible].

Menon: 01:04:33

Allan came to give a set of lectures on maybe one whole course when we were there. I forget now, which year it was. And that's when Mary Conley was in the group who attended those lectures. I mean, that famous paper of Arp, Baum, Sandage. I remember that-- that had been published. And that was the hot topic of that period. But I think I had finished my degree by that time when Allan came to give the talks. And Walter Baade also came same year that [inaudible] same year.

Hogg: 01:05:35

[inaudible].

Menon: 01:05:42

But once Bok left, it happens that the people who had been working for their degrees suddenly Bok, who was supposed to be the thesis advisor, they all had to find somebody who would be sponsor for them in the department. And that was a little hard. I mean, they couldn't imagine me being, even though officially I was appointed by NSF as the director the project, NSF project.

Kellermann: 01:06:30

But you weren't on the faculty.

Menon: 01:06:32

I was lecturer. I was--

Kellermann: 01:06:33

Oh, really?

Menon: 01:06:34

I was a lecturer. But the first letter of appointment for me was for one year. But three months later, I got another letter of appointment, making it into a five-year term. And Harvard apparently had never done that before. I mean, they could do it if they wanted. I had a feeling somehow, the NSF must have told Harvard, "You can't have a lecturer in astronomy as the director of your project and plan for years ahead. It has to be something firmer than that." So they suddenly decided to make it into a five-year contract, even though they had no money for it, the five-year appointment. And then the person of-- who are Drake, I think, formally, he had Tommy Gold. He had come at that time as his thesis adviser even though they had not really much contact at that time. May Kassim took Mrs. Gaposchkin as the adviser.

Kellermann: 01:08:02

What a pair.

Menon: 01:08:03

Yeah. And Bill Howard, Fred Whipple called me and said, "You're going to be his adviser." I mean, I was just told, because he was the chairman of the department and May Kassim-- I mean, I already said

Hogg: 01:08:29

Who else was there?

Kellermann: 01:08:30

Dieter.

Menon: 01:08:31

Oh, I think Dieter also. I think Mrs. Gaposchkin and Tommy Gold became a sponsor. And Cam Wade. Cam Wade, I'm not sure who was his sponsor, possibly Mrs. Gaposchkin, I'm not sure.

Kellermann: 01:09:09

She didn't know anything about radio astronomy.

Menon: 01:09:10

No.

Kellermann: 01:09:12

That was a formality.

Menon: 01:09:13

It is a formality.

Kellermann: 01:09:15

Well, the same thing happened in Caltech when John Bolton left. I ended up with Gordon, but some of the others ended up with other people in the faculty.

Menon: 01:09:26

Yeah, so there were a few hangers on who had started, at their finished thesis. And by that time, I left. I don't know who was the only [crosstalk]--

Kellermann: 01:09:42

How did you get along with Gold?

Menon: 01:09:45

Didn't get along at all.

Kellermann: 01:09:47

I knew. That's why I asked.

Menon: 01:09:50

No. We got along very well personally. But scientifically, we were good friends, but couldn't see eye to eye on anything to be done. And he had always his way of doing it, anything. And once, I taught him a lesson. After that, we got along a little better. One day I was at the Agassiz Station. It had rained or snowed the previous-- it had snowed the previous night, so the plastic cover on the feed at the focus of the 60 foot was wet. So I brought the antenna down and climbed up the ladder to change that plastic bag and to clean it up. So Tommy Gold had come and he saw me doing that. And it was taking a little bit of time because it was cold. My hands were-- fingers were frozen. And he said, "Oh, Kochu, there are better ways of doing it, as you should." So I said, "Ok, Tommy, you come and do it yourself since you are so experienced." And he came up. It took him and hour and a half in that cold. [laughter] It was-- he was-- but as friends, it could be very stimulating to talk to and-- but he wanted his own way, and since I was not a member of the Council of the observatory, since I was only a lecturer, he made the decisions-- some decisions had been made-- had to be made with the project without informing me. I said, "That's not a pleasant situation."

Kellermann: 01:12:01

Do you think your status as not being on the Council had more to do with your seniority or lack of seniority rather than radio astronomy?

Menon: 01:12:09

Probably both is a part. And also, back at Harvard, there were only three professors and no other faculty. There, yes, three professors.

Kellermann: 01:12:25

Shapley, Whipple, and Menzel.

Menon: 01:12:26

Not Shapley. Menzel, Whipple, and Bok. These were the only three professors. There were no associate professors. No assistant professors. Nothing.

Kellermann: 01:12:39

Wait, what about Menzel?

Menon: 01:12:41

Yes, Menzel, Whipple, and Bok.

Kellermann: 01:12:48

What about Shapley?

Menon: 01:12:49

Shapley retired.

Hogg: 01:12:50

He was emeritus.

Kellermann: 01:12:50

Oh, he was-- all right.

Menon: 01:12:51

Yeah, no, Shapley retired. Even by the time I joined.

Kellermann: 01:12:56

Oh I see.

Menon: 01:12:57

He was in the office.

Kellermann: 01:13:00

Then Gold came as a professor.

Menon: 01:13:02

When Bok left.

Kellermann: 01:13:03

Right. So there's still only three, I see.

Menon: 01:13:05

Only three in the Council.

Kellermann: 01:13:08

Oh. That was it?

Menon: 01:13:10

That's it. And even Mrs. Gaposchkin.

Kellermann: 01:13:17

Well that's a separate story. Yeah, we know that story.

Menon: 01:13:19

Yeah, that's a different story. But she was not even part of the Council.

Kellermann: 01:13:23

But she wasn't a professor.

Menon: 01:13:24

No, she was not a professor.

Kellermann: 01:13:25

No, yeah, I know, yeah. But they could have invited you in as a guest and they didn't?

Menon: 01:13:32

Oh yeah, they could have. No, because they all had me as a student. And who was it who told me, "Never continue in the same university where you did your doctoral at. You'll always be treated by the senior people as student."

Kellermann: 01:13:54

Well, I think it goes both ways. I still feel that way when I go back to Cal Tech, so.

Menon: 01:14:01

Yeah. Well, anyways. Then in '57 or '58, Tommy Gold had been there for a year after Bok left. Then Bengt Strömgren came to visit Harvard and it was widely known among the astronomers of that period that when Shapley retired, the first offer of the job at the Director of the Harvard Observatory had been to Bengt Strömgren, which he had declined. He didn't want to move Yerkes at that time. And so it was fairly well known. So Strömgren came to visit Harvard, gave a talk. And I don't know whether you knew when Bengt Strömgren.

Kellermann: 01:15:10

I've met him, yes. That's all.

Menon: 01:15:11

Met him, but not a very inspiring speaker. Very quiet, very low voice, very, very nice person. So he wanted to see the Radio Astronomy Project and Agassiz Station. So I drove him out to Agassiz Station. And when we were driving out, he told me that Tommy Gold is going to Cornell. I did not know that. So if I had known that a few days or a few months earlier - I forget now - I would not have left Harvard at that time because it was Tommy Gold’s obnoxious behavior, made me leave. Strömgren, of course, was well into the grapevine, so he knew he was leaving. But I don't think anyone at global faculty knew that Tommy was leaving.

[silence]

Kellermann: 01:16:33

Let's see. What about all the students? How did they get along with each other?

Menon: 01:16:38

Well, it was in a very exciting time. I mean, the students, because of the particular way the educational system at Harvard worked, particularly in astronomy, we had no classes in the morning, only the afternoon. Because we were supposed to be working at Agassiz Station. And so we were there in the library till 2:00, 3:00 in the morning. We went to Harvard Square, had breakfast and went to bed, and came back around 11 o'clock and had lunch and the graduate dining hall and came to the office. So practically everyone out there except married people, we were there. And the system there was, all the journals which came in the mail for a week. They were all put together in a box and given to the chairman of the department on Saturday morning. And after he has gone through and noted down papers of interest, it went on to the faculty. At the end of the next week it came to the library. And so the student library, it is called Phillips Library, and we were there, the students reading through every one of them and talking about it. Oh, for hours and hours and hours. I think it was a very exciting period. We learned from each other, because the courses were all very informal, but it was a very exciting time. I learned more from fellow students that is and [inaudible], "Oh, did you read this? Oh, did you read that?" and back and forth. That was a very exciting time. And there, it was that Tom Matthews played a very good role. He was there a good part of the time during these nightly discussions. And he read every journal and every paper. And all these others, too, Campbell Wade, all of us. It was a very exciting time. I think I can still remember the heated argument with May Kassim with other fellow students about what that paper did, say it right, and arguing about things.

Kellermann: 01:19:28

It was easy to argue with May. Still is. You know, Namir is her son?

Menon: 01:19:37

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Kellermann: 01:19:38

He’s at NRL

Menon: 01:19:39

I have met him. I have met him many times. We see him on meetings.

Kellermann: 01:19:44

So you left Harvard in what year?

Menon: 01:19:51

58.

Kellermann: 01:19:52

58. And you went to--

Menon: 01:19:54

Pennsylvania.

Kellermann: 01:19:54

Pennsylvania.

Menon: 01:19:55

Well, the way that happened was the possibilities at that time were-- there were several possibilities, and I was considering leaving-- the person who knew I was considering leaving Harvard was, of course, Bok. I had written to him at Mount Stromlo. And he had spread the word. And I don't know how it got through, but Jesse Greenstein knew that I was probably looking around, and Frank Wood, Bradshaw Wood, who was the director of the-- I mean, head of the astronomy at Penn, University of Pennsylvania. He was at Mount Stromlo at that time on his sabbatical. So Bok might have mentioned to him at that time. And Harold Weaver had sent me a written offer at Berkeley. He also knew that I was looking around.

Kellermann: 01:21:37

You hadn't thought about NRAO or--?

Menon: 01:21:41

No. NRAO, I did not know NRAO was hiring at all.

Kellermann: 01:21:47

Maybe they weren't, I mean.

Menon: 01:21:48

They were not. I don't think so.

Kellermann: 01:21:54

Well, were you still in contact at all with Dave Heeschen or--?

Menon: 01:21:58

Oh, yes. I was. I said in 56, 57, they were still there.

Kellermann: 01:22:04

At Harvard.

Menon: 01:22:05

Yeah. I mean at Ayers.

Kellermann: 01:22:06

Physically? Yeah.

Menon: 01:22:07

Physically, he was still there. So, I was seeing him quite regularly. But as you know, NRAO as it was being established was not supposed to have a large staff.

Kellermann: 01:22:24

Right. Right.

Menon: 01:22:24

And they were talking about--

Hogg: 01:22:26

Those that were, were meant to be quite technically strong.

Menon: 01:22:30

Yeah. And I think Merle Tuve played a role in that concept that you could bring, it could bring a connected to things there. So that was there. So I was not a--

Kellermann: 01:22:45

You didn't think about that.

Menon: 01:22:46

I was not an instrument builder, building [inaudible]. So I did not think of NRAO from that point of view.

Kellermann: 01:22:56

And that changed a year later.

Menon: 01:22:58

Yeah.

Kellermann: 01:22:58

You were only at Penn year. Is that right, or?

Menon: 01:23:01

Yeah, yeah. It changed. Then I don't know whether I talked to Dave at that time or not. One of the universities, University of Pennsylvania being one of the AUI, a member of the AUI branch, I wrote from Penn to, who was it, Bart, at Mount Stromlo. He wrote to me inquiring about the possibility of coming there. He was of the view that Penn had a very strong electrical engineering department.

Kellermann: 01:23:42

Computing?

Menon: 01:23:43

Computing. And microwave technology and like that. So there is a good possibility that a collaboration with NRAO could be developed. And J.G. Brainerd was the chairman of electrical engineering, he was very well known in field of electrical engineering and had written textbook and all that. So he contacted Brainerd and he said, "Oh, we will be glad to have a joint appointment in astronomy and electrical engineering. And we can collaborate to build things and take to a radio observatory." And so that is closer to Green Bank than any of the other universities. So I said, "Okay, we'll give it a try." But there were at same time, I think just a great [inaudible] letter or somebody had inquired of him, a potential candidate from University of Maryland. The chairman of the physics department at the University of Maryland, who later on was the president of Stonybrook. I forget his name, he's a physicist. He offered a job at the University of Maryland. This was in '57. There he wrote in the letter that this Jesse Greenstein suggested that I might be interested. And there again, the idea of building a group and then bringing to Green Bank, being far away from Green Bank, that was in the back of their mind. But when that offer came, I was either naive or foolish enough to mention it to Menzel because he already knew that I was might be thinking of moving. And he said, "Don't go to Maryland. The university has been censured by the AA, American Association of Universities at that time, so don't go there."

Kellermann: 01:26:20

I was familiar with the athletic center. I wasn't aware of [crosstalk] as well.

Menon: 01:26:25

Well, I think there was because of political interference in the university.

Kellermann: 01:26:29

Oh.

Menon: 01:26:29

By the legislator--

Kellermann: 01:26:30

State.

Menon: 01:26:31

Yeah. The state, they were censured them. So he said, "Don't go there." But when the offer from Penn came, I again talked to Menzel about it. That, he was quite happy. Actually, he called a friend of [inaudible] the physicist, and they said he wanted to make sure that TIAA contributions and all that will be continued properly and all that he has told me how important it is. I say fatherly advice.

Kellermann: 01:27:14

You're living on it now.

Menon: 01:27:14

Yeah. To some extent, yeah. So he was fatherly advice he gave me. We were good friends. I mean, he was nice in some ways.

Kellermann: 01:27:29

Okay. Well, maybe this is a good time to stop.

Menon: 01:27:31

Yeah.

Kellermann: 01:27:31

We can then get on to NRAO years after lunch. Go ahead.

Smith: 01:27:38

Just hit stop button.

Kellermann: 01:27:39

The stop button.

Menon: 00:02

Members could communicate papers from non-members and it would be published [inaudible]. So Franz Kahn worked on the timescale for the gaseous nebulae and we produced a little paper. And Struve looked at it and said, "Oh, it is very interesting and it should be published as quickly as possible." ApJ, in those days, it took a long time to appear. So he said , "I'll communicate it to the National Academy." And it was published in record time. A week or two weeks, in whatever time to get it printed. But no astronomer looks at National Academy Proceedings.

Kellermann: 00:59

Oh, they did way back. I mean, Hubble published a lot of stuff in the '30s.

Menon: 01:02

Yes. yes, yes. In those days, it did. But I've never seen or hardly ever seen it referenced to that paper by Franz Kahn and myself. Even though that was the first paper in which the expansion timescale of H II regions was estimated as being as short 10,000 years. It mentioned, I mean, the computer and the paper, that the lifetime of Orion Nebula at that time could not have been much more than about 10,000 years. It would all disappear. We had such [inaudible]. But hardly anyone knows about that.

Kellermann: 01:54

Tell us about Struve. What was he like? Did you interact with him much?

Menon: 02:00

Pawsey?

Kellermann: 02:01

No, Struve.

Menon: 02:02

Struve. Yes. I mean, interacted in the sense that every day, morning coffee time and afternoon coffee time, he came from his office, pulled out everyone who was in their offices, and we went down to the cafeteria for coffee. And he used to talk about all sorts of things. I mean, in addition to science, as well as his interactions with astronomers worldwide. And it was very, well, I mean, he was very perceptive. And you mentioned some topic like that. He immediately could visualize the implications of what you are saying from this very broad-  Because he had been writing this monthly article in Sky & Telescope for 25, 30 years or something like that. And you know the way he used to write those articles? He will sit there and Miss Neff will come and sit there with the shorthand. I mean, she was a good stenographer. She will note down-- I mean, it was dictated to her. Just straight like that. No draft. And she typed it up. And out it went to Sky & Telescope.

Kellermann: 03:38

It's amazing.

Menon: 03:39

It was amazing.

Hogg: 03:41

Those are well-known required readings.

Menon: 03:43

Required reading for everybody. And on every area of astronomy, he would do that. It was amazing. But he was very friendly with the astronomers. And because he was there, he brought [for talks?] with a lot of astronomers from around the world to Green Bank.

Kellermann: 04:19

For example?

Menon: 04:23

Let me see. The ones who came specifically because of Struve, I mean, the European astronomers who came--

Hogg: 04:43

[inaudible]?

Menon: 04:46

Yes.

Kellermann: 04:48

He wasn't a big shot then.

Menon: 04:54

Well, Bierman. He spent actually a week. Oort and I mean, people of his generation, by and large. Not the younger ones.  The younger ones came on their own.

Hogg: 05:25

[inaudible]?

Menon: 05:26

Hmm?

Hogg: 05:26

[inaudible]?

Menon: 05:27

Yes, yes, yes.

Hogg: 05:29

[inaudible].

Kellermann: 05:33

But what about his interaction with NRAO activities, and as Director.

Menon: 05:41

As a Director, I don't think with the general staff there was very much interaction because even though he was very communicative, but he gave the appearance of being very serious type of person. But he can laugh when the occasion arose. He had a very good laugh. But generally speaking, he was serious, and he didn't want to deviate too much from what discussion was about, scientifically, out of the range. Don’t talk too much about personalities, there was no social interaction.

Kellermann: 06:35

No, I meant his role as Director of NRAO. Now he didn't--

Menon: 06:40

He felt a little bit out of step in the sense that when the radio astronomical community and AUI, not many people who knew him. So his advice on that is because he has no engineering background as such, even though he was very much involved in [inaudible] in Texas and setting up [observing?] Texas, he had practical experience with telescopes. But radio astronomy, not only did he not have any experience directly with instrumentation, he did not know many of the people involved, particularly in east coast.  Because as you know, there was very clear distinction between the east coast people and the west coast people.

Kellermann: 07:49

At that time, the 140 foot construction was still in AUI’s hands, right? So he felt--

Menon: 07:55

He felt very frustrated.

Menon: 07:58

He felt very frustrated that he didn't know exactly how to handle that complex set of issues which arose in the 140 foot. Where exactly was the difficulty in completing the project and the technical issues involved. I mean many others did not understand either.

Kellermann: 08:30

[laughter] That's an understatement. We just heard yesterday that there are still problems.

Menon: 08:42

Yeah. Yeah. And when he went for the AUI Board meetings at Brookhaven, the people who were there didn't know him at all, and so they didn't pay much attention to what he was frustrated about. And some of those people being the physicists, they also did not really appreciate that there was need for direction. Of course, several people like Purcell who knew what was going on and what-- but they were all involved, busy people--

Kellermann: 09:38

They should have known from the Brookhaven experience. I mean in a way, it was very similar activity.

Menon: 09:44

Yes, but whatever-- I don't think many of them had time to pay attention to the-- they were all involved and busy people. I mean all the senior people who used to come for the Board meeting, they just did not have the time to discuss these issues.

Kellermann: 10:12

No. There were too many issues at Brookhaven, I guess.

Menon: 10:15

Yeah. And do you recall that big hole in the ground in West Virginia that--

Hogg: 10:32

Naval Research Lab.

Kellermann: 10:34

Sugar Grove.

Menon: 10:35

Yeah, Sugar Grove. Well, Purcell was scathing in his reporters to the foolishness of that whole project. And so it did not go well with the political administration, I mean, in the defense department.

Kellermann: 11:00

Sorry, what didn't?

Menon: 11:03

The Sugar Grove, the whole concept, he was very scathing remarks about it.

Kellermann: 11:11

Purcell?

Menon: 11:12

Purcell, from Purcell. I don't know that even wrote letter something about it.

Kellermann: 11:23

And you think that carried over to NRAO and radio astronomy.

Menon: 11:29

Yes, yes.

Kellermann: 11:41

But what about the actual operation? Because you came in '58. When did you come to-- after Pennsylvania, you came to NRAO--

Menon: 11:51

The first time I came was in '59 summer.

Kellermann: 11:55

'59. And so Struve was the director for roughly two years after you came, so - But what I was asking was more of his role as Director--

Menon: 12:07

No he didn't--

Kellermann: 12:09

--of organizing things, observing, or--

Menon: 12:12

No, he did not take part. I mean, obviously, he had no scientific programs of interest to him, which was to be done.

Kellermann: 12:24

So what did he do as Director other than writing the scientific telescope, the Scientific American articles?

Menon: 12:26

That is very good question. He did not play a role in developing NRAO as a radio astronomical observatory, because except for the prestige of a man like him being the Director, he was not involved in the science. And the only publicity NRAO got during that short period was-- you know what. [laughter]

Kellermann: 13:02

Oh, yeah, I do, but go on because you were involved.

Menon: 13:06

Yeah. [laughter] But he was very critical about it in the sense that as a scientific enterprise, he felt that it is something which needed to be done at some time. I mean, that it is valid science in the sense that the questions arising out of that, they were all very valid questions, but he did not have the technical knowledge like people like Purcell or Phil Morrison of how it could be accomplished. And when it came to managing the personnel, there was a little problem in the sense that NRAO was probably getting a little unwarranted publicity. What could be discussed scientifically and pursued scientifically in an orderly way, it got out of hand, even though you should have known that with a topic like that, the public interest would be there. Because the first day we were to start observing, I tuned the parametric amplifier. It was very unstable parametric amplifier at the focal box. And I tuned it and just got it stable, just barely stable. And it was cold. And [inaudible] got down from there and came into the building. Then I said, well, I had to go to the Residence Hall. And when I was reaching the Residence Hall, there were reporters there. And he said, "Oh, you must be all excited about this experiment. So I can see the excitement in your steps." “Actually, no. It's cold!” [laughter], shivering from that cold there. It is not the excitement of the sense, but. Then I asked him who he was. He was a reporter for a science or magazine--

Kellermann: 15:45

Science News, or?

Menon: 15:46

Science News. Science News. And I asked him, "How did you know we were going to start the experiments today?" He said, "I won't tell you." I knew immediately how he had gotten - because only three people knew who we are going to start observing that day, Frank--

Kellermann: 16:17

Bowyer. Omar Bowyer.

Menon: 16:18

Omar Bowyer, and myself. And we are the only three who knew around what time we hoped to start the coordinates and all that. And Omar certainly didn't talk to anybody. I didn't talk to anybody. From that time onwards, sort of the wrong foot in regard to the project in the sense that what should be emphasized, what should not be. Of course, my interest was not in the-- it was for the magnetic field. And very soon after I started that I realized that the stability of the system was not enough to get any definitive answer.

Kellermann: 17:15

Just to clarify, Kochu, this was a receiver that either you built or you had built for the Zeeman test--?

Menon: 17:23

Yes. Yes. And not only that, as you know, I was at the University of Pennsylvania at that time.

Kellermann: 17:30

Right. Oh, you were still at Pennsylvania?

Menon: 17:32

I was still at the Pennsylvania, and as I said earlier, there was supposed to be collaboration with the universities, to build there and bring stuff. So we talked about it, in fact, once, about the Zeeman experiment, all that, and what is needed, what receivers and [enough?] feed. At that time it did not have a feed necessary for the [inaudible] session measurement. So I went back to Pennsylvania. I called up Henry Jasik. Henry Jasik was the designer of the feed for the 85 foot.

Menon: 18:15

He would have also been the designer of the feed at the Harvard 24 foot. So I called Henry Jasik and asked this type of feed we will require and how much will it cost. He sort of, off the cuff, he gave an answer, $8,000. Well, that's some amount of money, but not a big deal. So I said-- I haven't got any money. I've been at Penn just a few months. So I said, "I'll try to find out where some money can be obtained." So only person I knew was [inaudible] who was the science-- in charge of Cambridge Air Force Center. He had been a lecturer at Harvard. He was a German who was given a special preferential visas to migrate to US after the war. And he had been in the German air force and all that. But he was an astronomer. I think his name was known to astronomers. High velocity stars-- not high velocity stars.

Hogg: 19:44

[Runaway?] stars?

Menon: 19:45

Globular clusters. Let me see, what exactly? He had published papers in pre-war days, apparently, on [that was on?] high velocity stars and asymmetry in the velocity distribution. I forget now the exact detail. So his name was known. And he was hired by Harvard Observatory as a refugee scientist. So he was a lecturer. So I knew him at Harvard, in my student days, even though he was senior to me. So he was with Air Force. So I called him and said, "[Gerd?], I need $8,000." He was in charge of giving grants to astronomers. He said, "It just so happens that I have a balance in my this year's budget of $8,000. You can have it. But be quick and write a quick proposal and send it to me. I will grant it." And he did. As soon as I got his approval I called up Henry Jasik and said, "Go ahead and design the feed. I'll get you the money. [inaudible] has promised me that." So I went to the vice president of Penn, in charge of research of that branch of the administration. And I told him that we are getting this grant-- I was getting this grant for $8,000 but that is exact amount $8,000. There is no provision for any charges with the university. So is it possible that the check will come and check will go out? There is no administration involved, no overhead. He said, "Well, as an exception we will do it." He did that. So I got the check from whoever it was that printed the check, and I gave it to him, and he gave it to Henry Jasik. And that was how that field was built.

Kellermann: 22:01

And what about the rest of the receiver? Who--?

Menon: 22:03

The rest of the receiver was from NRAO.

Kellermann: 22:05

It was, okay.

Menon: 22:06

With NRAO. It was a very simple type of--

Kellermann: 22:12

Yeah. Parametric amplifier.

Menon: 22:13

Parametric amplifier. But the basic design, because it's basically [lined?] receiver, if I remember correctly, it was the same design for receiver, except for the local oscillator, as the Harvard one.

Kellermann: 22:32

Okay. But it was built for your Zeeman experiment?

Menon: 22:35

Yes, yes, yes. Because in the discussions for the Ozma it certainly has to be a narrow band receiver.

Kellermann: 22:43

Right.

Menon: 22:44

And it has to be scannable. And so ideal one for 21-centimeter work also. So it was built specifically for that but you had to do it manually. I mean, there was no scanning mechanism for it.

Kellermann: 23:03

Wasn't there general interest in HI work?

Menon: 23:08

Yes, but it was going to take time. Doc Ewen was going to build a super duper line receiver which never panned out.

Kellermann: 23:20

I see.

Menon: 23:21

The whole thing was dropped. He was to build a very fancy, multi-channel, 200 channels or something like that, and, you know, Doc had always these huge ideas. And he would have done it but it would have cost a lot of money by the time he built it. But it never worked and we couldn't wait.

Kellermann: 23:41

Right, okay.

Menon: 23:42

Oh, yes. There was totally plans for a good, line receiver but it never worked out. And then it was clear the parametric amplifier-- you must have heard the story about the parametric amplifier, that of Doc Ewen arranged for that-- from what is that company? It's a Boston company who built the parametric amplifier and it was transported to here. Art Robishaw.

Kellermann: 24:23

It was later, yeah.

Menon: 24:24

But not Art Robishaw. Who was the--?

Kellermann: 24:29

Well--

Menon: 24:30

No.

Kellermann: 24:31

--[inaudible] wasn't Airborne Instruments, AIL  on Long Island?

Menon: 24:33

Yeah, AIL. Yes.

Kellermann: 24:35

AIL, that was on Long Island.

Menon: 24:36

Yes, AIL built that.

Kellermann: 24:38

Yeah, I know the guy's name.

Menon: 24:44

Yeah, I forget his name, too.

Hogg: 24:49

I don't know, AIL is right but [inaudible] the guys name.

Kellermann: 24:53

He was Art something, too.

Menon: 24:57

Not Art Robishaw.

Kellermann: 24:58

No,

Menon: 24:58

no.

Menon: 25:02

Anyway, it was an experimental parametric amplifier. You know that whole technology died?

Kellermann: 25:10

Yes.

Menon: 25:10

It just was so unstable. You couldn't get it to amplify anything.

Kellermann: 25:19

Well, it amplified, but it also--

Menon: 25:21

Very unstable.

Kellermann: 25:24

But you said that the Struve was critical about publicity, but didn’t he-

Menon: 25:31

Critical, but privately.

Kellermann: 25:33

Privately critical.

Menon: 25:35

Privately critical in the sense that I don't think he expressed very widely that NRAO was getting the bad publicity for a good, valid concept and experiment, which we will have to do someday. And questions which are being asked and being worked on by various people, they're all valid things. But we are promising something to the public, which just cannot be. We are not anywhere to give an answer to those questions.

Kellermann: 26:14

And he did give a talk at MIT.

Menon: 26:16

Yes, but in the talk you'll see he didn't talk about-- I mean, he talked about the whole concept and saying that we are starting the project at a place-- he wanted some publicity, but not the type of publicity. The only thing I got out of that was I was able to get in touch with uncle of mine in Singapore because in the July 1960 issue of Reader's Digest, there was a copy of an article which had appeared earlier in Newsweek, article about Ozma in which my name was mentioned. So my uncle, who was a doctor in Singapore, he happened to see that. And he wrote a card to me, "T.K. Menon, Project Ozma, West Virginia." That was the address. And it was delivered.

Kellermann: 27:40

I mean, yeah, we could get mail just addressed to you and Green, first the name in Green Bank.

Menon: 27:45

No, project Ozma Green Bank.

Kellermann: 27:48

Oh, Project Ozma.

Menon: 27:49

Yeah. Project Ozma.

Kellermann: 27:50

Well, anything addressed to Green Bank would.

Hogg: 27:53

There were two details about what you asked me about; one, it was always my view that Struve would prestige reputation by endorsing the scientific construct, gave enough shelter that the project could be done. And the board of AUI and all that would say, "Okay, it's good." I don't know whether it could have gone without some authority figure like Struve saying it wasn't making up science. It was real science.

Menon: 28:29

No, I think because concern was not that it was not real science or it needed support because it was not as it was envisaged at that time, it was not a big expensive project.

Hogg: 28:51

Few days.

Menon: 28:52

Just few days. Even the instruments were not being thought out as being very expensive and things like that. So in that sense, purely internal discussion would have obtained as much support for the program as any outside expectations that NRAO was doing something fantastic and needed all the support from the outside community, either scientific or public in general.

Hogg: 29:28

Well, the shelter from ridicule.

Menon: 29:30

Shelter from ridicule? I don't think, Struve in his talk, he gave the basic, valid argument. So after that there was no public-- or that thing that's difficult to question. But in the scientific community, I don't think there was any ridicule, in that sense. I mean, the questions-- the valid questions of the details of those [inaudible] and all that. They were valid questions.

Kellermann: 30:10

Sure. Well once the Cocconi-Morrison paper was published, I think that gave it credibility.

Menon: 30:14

Yeah.

Hogg: 30:16

And that was before they actually did the observations.

Menon: 30:18

Yes. Yes.

Kellermann: 30:20

But the planning for Ozma was first. I mean, I think that's not widely recognized, but nothing was published.

Hogg: 30:27

I'm thinking in the latter day what would be called the Golden Fleece Award. You wanted to avoid that.

Menon: 30:33

Yeah. I agree. I agree with-- I agree what you're saying.

Hogg: 30:37

The other question was the security because I was there as a student when this was being done. I wasn't part of it. In fact, I was excluded from it. But I resented losing telescope time to this when I could have been working on my thesis. But I do remember going to a briefing for the telescope operators that Frank held, in which he emphasized the importance that there be no leaks. Do you remember a briefing like that?

Menon: 31:08

Yes. That was all on the-- at one level, that was to be emphasized. But somehow, the leaks did happen.

Hogg: 31:22

Yes.

Kellermann: 31:25

If there were any leaks, it had to come from Frank.

Hogg: 31:27

Yes.

Menon: 31:29

As I said, there were only three people who knew.

Kellermann: 31:37

So getting back to the more general operation of NRAO, if it wasn't Struve that was guiding things, who was giving the--?

Menon: 31:50

Well, I think in a quiet way, Dave got everyone else to focus on their own scientific interests and encouraged them to go along the hard science which needed to be done. And I think all the others who were there, they were working on solid science with the facilities available. But it was still a little difficult to imagine the type of facilities which could be built up and the timescale involved, so that it-- one thing to think of a project and an estimate, how long will it take to get the hardware and all that going - There was no way of making hard estimates of that.

Kellermann: 33:04

So who was overseeing those activities of what instrumentation to build, what new telescopes might be built?

Menon: 33:13

Well, I--

Kellermann: 33:14

Was it Dave, or? I mean, Findlay.

Menon: 33:18

I mean I don't know whether one can pinpoint any particular individual. We usually came up-- we knew we need one initial starting dish. I mean, 85-1. I mean, let's get it done. And a basic receiver, a continuum receiver. And obviously, since the dish surface is good for centimeter wavelength let's start work. And there are enough projects being proposed both from inside NRAO as well as from outside. That it is purely [a question of?] programming to get the--

Kellermann: 34:10

So where did the initiative for 85-1 come from? Or was it just the group as a whole?

Menon: 34:15

The group as a whole. We have to have a first telescope and not wait for the 600-foot.

Kellermann: 34:25

140 foot.

Hogg: 34:26

No, 600 foot.

Menon: 34:27

Oh, 600-foot was the first thing being talked about in original plans and all that.

Kellermann: 34:38

But at this time, the 140 it was under construction.

Menon: 34:40

Yes. Yes. Well, that everyone had great expectation that when it is ready, all the people at that time they had programs to go on that. But the time scale was--

Kellermann: 34:57

Do you understand what, if any, relation there was between this NRAO for 600 foot and the Sugar Grove? I mean, it can't be a coincidence that the same size, was the thought that one would just take the Sugar Grove design and rebuild it? And why was that necessary if you already had one 600-foot?

Menon: 35:17

But I don't think any astronomers had any input to those discussions.

Kellermann: 35:23

But where'd it come from, you think?

Menon: 35:25

I think it was [inaudible, Berkner?, inaudible].

Kellermann: 35:29

Or Hagen? Hagen was of course on the Advisory Committee.

Menon: 35:32

I don't know. I don't know. But the radio astronomers associated with the initial ideas for NRAO and all that, I don't think any of them put in the idea of 600-foot.

Kellermann: 35:50

Hagen certainly promoted it.

Hogg: 35:54

The IRE radio astronomy issue had a plan for the telescope for [wasn’t it 600?] in America.

Kellermann: 36:02

Yeah. But my question was--

Hogg: 36:06

Yeah, no, we worked your question--

Kellermann: 36:07

-- which came first?

Hogg: 36:09

Well, I think that the Sugar Grove did, and I think there was never any hint or expectation of any kind that Sugar Grove Telescope would ever be for astronomy.

Menon: 36:21

Yeah.

Kellermann: 36:21

Until they decided that it was a fiasco and they couldn't build it. And it became the radio telescope. And that's what Kochu was saying, that cast dispersions at NRAO because from the outside they all look the same.

Hogg: 36:41

Is that right?

Menon: 36:42

Yeah. And fortunately, in the public view, it didn't stay very long. It died. I mean hardly anyone alive now even knows what Sugar Grove. So it was a very short timescale. And since there was some secrecy associated with it, everyone outside the scientific community who became aware of it and said, "Oh, it must be some secret project."

Kellermann: 37:21

There was.

Menon: 37:22

It was. I don't know whether Purcell published it in a note somewhere because one of the justifications for the 600 foot was to listen to the Russian transmissions. And he showed that satellite do it so much more cheaply.

Kellermann: 37:50

Well, I think that was the death of-- part of the death of Sugar Grove, the technical and cost problems satellites came along. Whereas I think they--

Hogg: 37:59

They were not when it was--

Kellermann: 38:00

Yeah. When it was conceived. Yeah.

Menon: 38:06

Yeah. It had an effect on NRAO to grow. And in the public mind there was that confusion of the two.

Kellermann: 38:24

I believe the National Radio Quiet Zone in fact is centered on Sugar Grove not Green Bank.

Menon: 38:31

Yes.

Kellermann: 38:33

And so there was connections and involvement. Well, let's get back to NRAO. Yesterday you told me, I think, that you had been present at this meeting at Hot Springs, I think, where they talked about getting the land.

Menon: 38:55

No, not getting the land, but I think the Engineering Corps.

Kellermann: 39:01

Right. Corps of the--

Menon: 39:02

Corps of Engineers is already obtained the land, and it has to be transferred to AUI.

Kellermann: 39:11

No, the land-- Dave, the land was always federal land, wasn't it?

Hogg: 39:20

No.

Kellermann: 39:20

No.

Hogg: 39:22

It was, probably.

Kellermann: 39:23

No, no, no. I mean, after NRAO took over. It doesn't belong to AUI now, it belongs to the federal government.

Hogg: 39:28

Well, Ted is really bitter about that. The AUI obtained-- according to Ted, I don't know this. The last time, or second last time, we had lunch - and we'd go to have lunch with Ted every once in a while - AUI had obtained options on all but one or two of the pieces. There was little or no hostility. The prices were fair in the views of the displaced persons. And they were selling willingly in the sense there wasn't any condemnation. At some point in the process AUI had gotten ahead of the NSF on this, but at some point in the process, the NSF decided that the Corps of Engineers had to do it by eminent domain. And that's when the wheels off. The Corps of Engineers went ahead and got the land. That land's never been turned over to AUI. That's now a part of the federal land.

Kellermann: 40:28

Yeah. It's still federal land, but they--

Menon: 40:29

I see.

Kellermann: 40:30

Well, my understanding - and I talked to my son-in-law who deals in this stuff - there was no fixed price. The options mean that AUI had the right to obtain the land at whatever price it was going to be sold for.

Hogg: 40:53

I guess that's correct. Yes.

Kellermann: 40:56

And it's my theory that-- and this was done—Berkner got these options prior to AUI having the contract for NRAO.

Hogg: 41:09

I don't know that, but you could be right.

Kellermann: 41:11

And I believe he did this to get AUI one up on the NSF as far as who would get the contract because there were other competitors. And the NSF saw this and put-- I mean, this is my own reasoning. I've never seen this. Just took it over by the right of eminent domain to even the playing field.

Hogg: 41:39

That’s quite reasonable.

Kellermann: 41:42

Okay. But anyway, tell us about the meeting you were at.

Menon: 41:45

Well, ‘57 we had the meeting. We were all invited to come in Hot Springs in the hotel there.

Hogg: 41:58

Homestead? Homestead?

Menon: 42:01

I think so. It must have been-- it must have been. The meeting there.

Kellermann: 42:09

Remind me, where were you-- just to keep track, where were you coming from then?

Menon: 42:13

I'm from Harvard.

Kellermann: 42:13

You were still at Harvard?

Menon: 42:14

I was at Harvard. I was at Harvard at that time. And then there was a function in Green Bank. We came in buses from Hot Springs and there were some sort of speech making and all that. It was supposed to be. I mean, my recollection is that AUI was taking over the land from the Corps of Engineers. I mean, that was supposed to be the reason for that meeting and that function. And that was all. I mean, there was no science or anything that connected with that function. There was a few speeches being made. I don't know who was there from NSF at that meeting. I know Charles Dunbar, right? The legal AUI person. He was running around getting papers and in the speech making and all that.

Hogg: 43:24

I think my mother had already left the NSF by then.

Menon: 43:29

Yeah.

Hogg: 43:29

So she wasn't at that meeting. [crosstalk].

Menon: 43:31

I think, if I recall correct, the NSF representative, not Jeff Keller.

Hogg: 43:42

Well, that was the name I was trying to come up. I was going to say the guy who did the quantum transition, and that's Keller.

Menon: 43:51

Jeff Keller.

Menon: 43:52

You’re thinking of [inaudible]?

Hogg: 43:56

No, no. [inaudible]. Was--

Kellermann: 43:58

Yeah, that's why.

Hogg: 43:59

Did Keller [Meyer?] on table. So economic transition.

Hogg: 44:04

Yeah.

Hogg: 44:04

And he, I think immediately succeeded my mother. So it's conceivable, that he was, it would've been appropriate.

Menon: 44:12

Yeah. I have a feeling when in connection with that Jeff Keller, he must have taken over, what year it would've been when your mother stepped down?

Hogg: 44:30

I would've guessed about 1956.

Menon: 44:32

'56. Because I told you about this letter from the Fellows of Harvard College, from my appointment, how it was changed from one year to the five year term. I have heard, I don't know from whom it was, that Harvard wanted Tommy Gold to be the project director, but Jeff Keller said, "No way." So they had to appoint. And I knew Jeff Keller, not very well, but I knew him casually. So it was Jeff Keller who said it has to be the one who is [inaudible] the project now.

Hogg: 45:21

Well, that would make the timing right for him or his associate to have been the one at this site meeting.

Menon: 45:27

The other person who I think after Jeff Keller, who was it?

Hogg: 45:37

RPI or Fleischer?

Menon: 45:39

No, no. No, this was much later. No, Fleischer probably was in between. But I'm thinking another Dutchman. I forget now the name. I was able to get some money out of him for the Indian project from the NSF.  NSF is supposed to be entirely in those days for internal domestic purposes. But in that one year, this must happen in '62 or 63, much later, where they are [inaudible] the grants they must've had give at into various states, various universities. And then now that - it end up that [inaudible] $25,000 or something like.

Kellermann: 46:51

Of course, they gave money to Mill's Cross and the Parke's dish. So they were funding things.

Menon: 47:00

Yeah. It was amazing that a grant to all the various estates and universities. And NSF was not supposed to get involved with foreign grants.

Hogg: 47:13

Well, Fleischer, I don't know that he has succeeded Keller directly. But I lived in the house that Fleischer lived in when he was in the summer in Green Bank in 1960.

Menon: 47:27

Oh, yes, yes.

Hogg: 47:28

He was still at RPI. So he moved to the NSF in '62 and '63.

Menon: 47:34

Yeah. I knew Fleischer quite well because at the first AAS meeting I attended was at RPI.

Kellermann: 47:50

Well, and he's taking over from Corps of Engineers to AUI. I mean, he must've been just taking over the responsibility for developing the land.

Hogg: 48:00

Right.

Kellermann: 48:01

As not legal takeover.

Hogg: 48:03

Right.

Menon: 48:05

Yeah, it was some sort of responsibility of taking over. That was the only justification for that meeting.

Kellermann: 48:14

Was Lloyd Berkner there?

Menon: 48:17

I'm not sure. I don't think so. No, I don't know who all were there because--

Kellermann: 48:28

Did you know him? Did you have any contact with Berkner?

Menon: 48:30

Berkner? Well, not really. Only thing amusing one I know of his, one day [inaudible] I was in [inaudible] walked along the main road back and forth evening walk, and he was quizzing me about developments in astronomy, what was important, what is going on? It's a general discussion about astronomy, and after it was over and John Findlay called me and said, "You have [unaudible] for his next talk. Did you know that? And Berkner wants to give a talk somewhere it seems, and he wanted to have the latest astronomical news." And he said, "You have given him all the news for his next talk." But I did not know him personally much, but casual several times.

Kellermann: 49:39

What were your impressions of him?

Menon: 49:41

He was big operator, all right. Yeah. But for him, I would not have flown first class in US Airlines. Did you know that? Before, when NRAO was first established, all the scientific staff flew first class in the planes when we flew for the meetings anywhere, first class. Until, I am told that we mentioned one day he got down at the Washington National from the first class and the NSF director from economy class and that's the end of that that would not have happened but for Berkner, because he wanted everyone in the scientific staff to fly first class.

Kellermann: 50:42

I heard this story from Dave. It's slightly a different thing.

Menon: 50:46

What?

Kellermann: 50:47

Dave, I heard, he told us several times. He said that he was first class because he got a late ticket, and it was full or something like that. He never said that--

Menon: 50:58

No, I flew first class too.

Kellermann: 51:01

--that they went regularly.

Hogg: 51:04

That's certainly was a pressure [inaudible].

Kellermann: 51:07

Yeah. And he's told that story about having met the NSF people on the same plane.

Hogg: 51:13

Yeah, but this is different in the country stories as it was Berkner himself. Something a Iittle disconnected.

Menon: 51:26

No, I would know that—[inaudible]. And those were the days when airlines served meals on real china, on real--

Kellermann: 51:50

What about Rabi? Did you have any contact with him?

Menon: 51:52

Just casual conversation at work meetings, not in any personal way. I knew he was the president of AUI, I think, when my [inaudible] was discussed. Dave told me he was the-- so he came and asked who are-- some letters he has to obtain, just asked some names. I don't know who he finally wrote to.

Kellermann: 52:35

Rabi asked you?

Menon: 52:36

No, no. Dave asked me because Dave had to submit the papers, and then he mentioned Rabi's very tough at looking at this. So we have to get it to the right people whom Rabi is likely to come across, not from some unknown somebody from India or something like that [laughter].

Kellermann: 53:08

You coexisted with Grote Reber in Green Bank for a while.

Menon: 53:12

Oh, yeah. When we were fellow bachelors in Hill House, we interacted a great deal. He made me dig those bean, holes for the beans. Oh, yeah. We were very, very friendly. I mean, he, of course, had his strong views, but he thought he could be more frank with me than people like John Findlay who was the other--

Kellermann: 53:51

Who was also living there?

Menon: 53:52

Yes.

Kellermann: 53:56

More frank about what?

Menon: 53:59

I mean, in general. His opinion about others.

Kellermann: 54:05

Was he critical about NRAO then? He certainly was in later years.

Menon: 54:10

Well, he was critical of big science in general. So in that sense, not [project?] some sort of-- after all, he was using the facilities-- not NRAO. So no, in general he did not believe in big science, even though he realized in his day what he built would have been considered big sciences. I often reminded him of that. “Look, Grote, in your early years you must have been big science, not in terms of money, but in terms of the facility."

Kellermann: 55:06

Were you there during the meeting with Russia?

Menon: 55:10

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Menon: 55:13

Yeah. 61. Yeah.

Menon: 55:17

Yeah. 61. Yeah. That was real, for them much more than for us.

Kellermann: 55:29

Was that something that was initiated by Struve through his contacts? Where did that come-- how did that come about?

Menon: 55:38

I'm trying to recall who initiated that. I think by that time there was-- at least among the astronomical community, for closer interaction with the Russian astronomers. And I'm sure Struve played a role in that. And his influence in the National Academy. It was through the National Academy that the whole thing came. Of course, the details of the things were all handled by National Academy and Soviet Academy of Sciences, and we did not know until the last minute who will be members. And the fiasco part of it was the translator which the Academy sent for the meeting. That lady had no scientific background whatsoever for every word from Russian to English or English to Russian. She did not know how to translate. And it turned out that even though she was in the listing translator for the National Academy, she was really a CIA operator.

Menon: 57:02

I found that out by accident. I got to the-- her name was Edmondson. So talking to her in the cafeteria, it turned out that her previous experience overseas was she worked in the US IS. It is called US Information Service in my home state in India, which was a communist state. She was working there for three or four years. I didn't think National Academy would send somebody from their staff to Kerala, India. So then we still had, at Green Bank, that old telephone exchange, and so any calls coming from outside or going out had to be plugged in there. And there were only a few of us who knew how to do it, and her-- I mean, we all knew which rooms everyone was staying, including this lady. And whenever we wanted to call-- whoever wanted to call, sorry, we used to take them to the lab and plug it in but it was always from about 11 o'clock or 11:30, her room was plugged outside. I don't know to where, but for an hour, hour and a half that her room was tied up with external calls. So obviously she was reporting what all happened, not too much was happening. So she must be making up stories.

Kellermann: 59:06

Yeah. One more topic, Kochu, the recombination line work. Mezger and Hoglund. So they found the recombination lines at 140 foot--

Menon: 59:18

Yes.

Kellermann: 59:19

--soon after you went into operation. But they did some experiments the year before on 85-1. You know much about that, or?

Menon: 59:34

Yeah, I'm trying to recall exactly what. I had not given much thought to that, what exactly happened because there was discussion about it. Well, because I got into the recombination thing only later on with, I mean, Payne. Oh, engineer at that time,

Kellermann: 01:00:21

John Payne?

Menon: 01:00:21

John Payne. John Payne and they published papers. But that was later.

Kellermann: 01:00:29

Yeah.

Menon: 01:00:30

That was later. So at the time, all I know is what Hoglund, and the publication--

Kellermann: 01:00:54

Yeah. Science.

Menon: 01:00:56

And in Science, I'm trying to recall. He had sent it to Nature first. He sent it. Oh, now that's coming back. It was '67, is it?

Kellermann: 01:01:12

No, it's 65, I think.

Menon: 01:01:13

'65.

Kellermann: 01:01:14

Soon after I got there when the telescope went into operation.

Menon: 01:01:17

Yeah. I had sent papers, think in '65, maybe. I think one of my papers on the [inaudible] and following, I think your paper from the lower frequency turnover, how to estimate the sizes of [inaudible]. Now, Peter and [inaudible], they were preparing their paper and the question was where to publish it. Now, Nature, of course, is the obvious one to send. I had sent my paper on this to Nature, and surprisingly, within less than a week, I got an acceptance. I mean, as fast as the mail could cross the Atlantic, I got the acceptance. And Peter had sent-- I mean, but they had sent a paper for publication soon after that. And they waited and they waited. No reply came. And so he phoned or sent a telegram or whatever to Maddox asking why the paper has not appeared. Rumor is, and I have not seen the letter itself, Maddox wrote back saying, something to the effect, I do not any such inquiries from authors like that, why some paper is not being published. So he returned the paper and then he sent it to-- they sent it to Science. That's one version I heard. I don't know how much truth there is of what exactly Peter got back from Maddox.

Hogg: 01:03:36

Now that was 140 foot material?

Menon: 01:03:39

Yeah. 140 foot.

Kellermann: 01:03:42

Okay. I think we're done unless there's anything else?

Menon: 01:03:45

No.