Michael Balister , Interviewed by Kenneth I. Kellermann, 13 February 2019

Kellermann: 00:01

So some of the things I was going to just--

Bouton: 00:08

Maybe you should state your date and title.

Kellermann: 00:09

Oh, right. Yeah. Thank you. This is Ken Kellerman with Ellen Bouton and Lisa Locke talking with Mike Balister. And it's the 13th of February 2019. So you knew John Payne--

Balister: 00:33

In Canada.

Kellermann: 00:33

--in Canada. But you came to NRAO just responding to an advertisement in the IEEE MTT Magazine.

Balister: 00:44

[inaudible]. Otherwise I'd never heard of NRAO.

Kellermann: 00:47

Come a little closer.

Balister: 00:49

Yeah. It was [inaudible].

Kellermann: 00:54

And that was in 1965? That you made your first visit.

Balister: 00:58

Yes. Yep.

Kellermann: 01:01

And talked with Art Shalloway [and Hein Hvatum].

Balister: 01:07

And Art Rob--

Kellermann: 01:07

And Art Robichaud.

Balister: 01:08

If it hadn't had been for Art Robichaud I might never have come to NRAO. I mean, I sort of liked the guy. I was impressed by him. Unfortunately, he left soon after I got here. There's no connection.

Kellermann: 01:22

And then so you accepted the job. You heard that Sandy Weinreb was coming at that time. And by the time you actually came he was here.

Balister: 01:30

He was here, yeah.

Kellermann: 01:32

There, Green Bank.

Balister: 01:33

And I think Hein was responsible for hiring him. I mean, Hein was sort of the de facto--

Kellermann: 01:41

I think it was Heeschen actually.

Balister: 01:42

Was it Heeschen? Yeah. But he was observing in Green Bank, so I must have met all these people.

Kellermann: 01:50

Joe Pawsey visited Green Bank at the request of Rabi, who was president of AUI. This is when there were all sorts of problems with 140 foot and asked Pawsey to come and report back to him what things were like in Green Bank. And it's a long story about his report back, which I'll tell you sometime later, but his letter was fairly negative. These guys they're good, but they don't have the experience. But there was this--

Balister: 02:31

That was the impression I got when I was interviewed.

Kellermann: 02:33

Yeah. But there was this kid who was observing on the telescope that was really sharp.  That was Sandy.

Balister: 02:39

Okay. Yeah. In my case, it was Art Robichaud. He did impress me.

Kellermann: 02:43

Yeah. And so he recommended that--

Balister: 02:48

To be honest, Art Shalloway and Hein didn't really interview me in a technical - .

Kellermann: 02:53

Right. So I think that that's where Heeschen got the incentive to hire Sandy. And as Sandy said, Heeschen asked him if he was interested and Sandy said, "Make me an offer." Heeschen did and that was it.

Balister: 03:15

Yeah. I think there might have been some suggestion that Sandy stayed in Green Bank for a year or so.

Kellermann: 03:22

Oh, I was going to ask you about that.

Balister: 03:23

Well, I don't know the details. You should talk to Sandy about that, but. Sandy didn't stay more than a year or so. And then he went to Charlottesville,

Kellermann: 03:32

But you came to Green Bank with the intention to stay in Green Bank. You knew about people who were moving to Charlottesville.

Balister: 03:41

Yeah. Oh, yes. But I was a caver. Limestone.

Kellermann: 03:45

Ah, that was what kept you there.

Balister: 03:47

It was the limestone that attracted me.

Kellermann: 03:48

I see. So when you came, you formally worked for Sandy. Sandy was head of electronics or something.

Balister: 04:03

And when he left, he put me in charge. And I sort of complained to him a bit that there were people that have been there for several years, and I didn't want to seem like [inaudible]. But it didn't really seem to be the problem. I know nobody really wanted the job.

Kellermann: 04:19

When do you think that was, '66 or '7?

Balister: 04:23

That's one date I'm not sure about. I'm not sure how long Sandy was in Green Bank. You might want to find out from him what date he left.

Kellermann: 04:30

Actually, we can find-- We probably have that.

Bouton: 04:33

It must be in the personnel records.

Balister: 04:34

Yeah, [crosstalk]. When he left, he put me in charge. They were the good old days. Nothing was locked up, and it was a bit [inaudible] Bill Howard [inaudible] astronomers would be requesting things. And there'd be requests [inaudible] they would okay them, and I said, "But we got no receiver." And they'd say, "Oh, there's a paramp in a cupboard down in the basement," and I'd had like a week to open it all up. Mort Roberts was happy he wasn't [inaudible] it was the lack of [inaudible].

Kellermann: 05:20

Exactly. So it was okay for spectroscopy, but that continued on for years including Tucson. The receivers were built mostly for the people doing spectroscopy. I was doing continuum work. And they didn't worry enough about the gain stability.

Balister: 05:50

They did worry, but with paramps, up and down, gain jumps up 10 times more, and [inaudible].

Locke: 06:02

The basement's still full of receiver parts. If you need anything, you go down there, spend hours.

Balister: 06:08

Yeah, over nothing [crosstalk].

Kellermann: 06:09

Basement in Green Bank?

Locke: 06:10

Yes, still.

Balister: 06:12

You can probably still find that hydrogen line paramp.

Locke: 06:17

Although to get into the door in the basement, you need a card. So I walked down the stairs, and then I was stuck to go back upstairs.

Balister: 06:29

Those were the good old days.

Kellermann: 06:31

Yeah. But so you just started to mention the relationship between electronics people and astronomers, pressures, and -

Balister: 06:42

Yeah, I mean, you still got the [inaudible] not really have a problem. But I worked with astronomers and telescopes and things, but some of the later people that came just worked on electronics and had absolutely no connection with astronomers. And I think they felt like the poor relation, whereas in Radiophysics, I mentioned it there, I felt like one of them, one of the team.

Kellermann: 07:09

Wasn't that true in Green Bank too, though? I mean, I think there's a much better connection in Green Bank.

Balister: 07:13

Because we were all in the same building.

Kellermann: 07:15

Well, not only that, but you also lived [laughter] in the same. So spouses, children, knew each other, and it was much more of a connection.

Balister: 07:26

[crosstalk]It wasn’t really until I got to Charlottesville when I started hearing [inaudible]. And maybe over the last 20 years that I haven’t been around it’s less of a problem.

Kellermann: 07:38

No, it's more of a problem.

Balister: 07:39

Okay. I mean how--

Kellermann: 07:41

I think we--

Balister: 07:41

--many separate buildings [crosstalk]?

Kellermann: 07:43

Yeah, it's not a conscious decision but you are the only one, I think, that comes over here. [laughter],

Locke: 07:51

Well, that happened in Penticton, too.  You had all of the telescopes and the engineers, and most of the astronomers are, well most of the millimeter astronomers are in Victoria. Although we do, some of us are in Penticton. So yeah, so there's definitely a - whenever they're in separate buildings, even a mile away.

Balister: 08:11

Actually, I heard the same comments about the VLA. The astronomers were out in a lot of huts. I think the engineers were out in huts, and astronomers were in a fancy brick building.

Locke: 08:23

Well, now the engineers are in the basement.

Kellermann: 08:25

That's right. It's still--

Locke: 08:26

And they still have to come back up.

Kellermann: 08:27

Yeah, but they still they got isolation. Even the basement.

Balister: 08:34

But it's damn lonely.

Kellermann: 08:37

No, it's bad. [crosstalk] It's bad. Well, that combined with the two fields, astronomy and engineering, becoming more specialized. I mean 50 years ago, I could--

Balister: 08:52

They were interwoven.

Kellermann: 08:53

50 years ago, I could talk to you and understand what you were talking about and what you were doing, and even hold a soldering iron or something.

Balister: 09:00

I haven't progressed much in 20 years.

Kellermann: 09:02

But the engineering has become so much more specialized.

Balister: 09:08

Yeah, even for me, I now have problems understanding some of the things you're talking about.

Kellermann: 09:14

Well, it's like cars. I used to be able to fix a car.

Balister: 09:18

Yeah. I could even jump start cars.

Kellermann: 09:31

So in that period just after people moved to Charlottesville, what was the vision and responsibilities in electronics between Green Bank and Charlottesville? What did Charlottesville do?

Balister: 09:46

Well, Sandy, it was a group that was Jochen Edrich, he was a German, he was a paramp guy. And there was Art Shalloway. I mean I don't have any interaction with Sandy that - there wasn't a big group in Charlottesville originally. There were a few technicians. And again, I think you'll have to ask Sandy. And I think that's when the term Central Development Lab started with the group in Charlottesville.

Kellermann: 10:22

But all the electronics in Green Bank was done in Green Bank, wasn't it?

Balister: 10:26

Yes. I think that's true. I'm not sure.

Kellermann: 10:31

Except maybe the digital stuff, Shalloway built it here? And then brought it over.

Balister: 10:38

Sandy is the best guy to talk to there.

Kellermann: 10:42

So was it--

Balister: 10:43

The move when the VLA started, that's when the group grew in Charlottesville. And Sandy had - my brain's having problems with names--

Kellermann: 11:02

I know that. Yeah.

Balister: 11:03

--and resurrecting them. And the guy that's brought this - I mean, quite a lot of these people are gone. And there's Ron Weimer, Sandy hired Ron Weimer in Green Bank. And he knew Ron Weimer from MIT. And I think a lot of the initial hires were based on people he knew. And then I came to Charlottesville and well, as you know, [inaudible] really grew happy in Green Bank or anywhere.

Kellermann: 11:45

That's why a lot of people came to Charlottesville.

Balister: 11:48

That reason.

Locke: 11:49

Yeah. Spouses and kids.

Kellermann: 11:51

And when was that?

Balister: 11:52

Probably about '68, '69, '70 somewhere at that time.

Kellermann: 11:59

Or we can find that out too.

Balister: 12:03

Right now, we have specific [inaudible]

Kellermann: 12:11

It's not that the years are so important, but in relation to other things.

Balister: 12:16

Yeah. The proof wasn't here that long when they moved to Ivy Road, the Dynamics building, that where we were most of the time.

Kellermann: 12:31

Originally, everybody was here, right?

Balister: 12:34

Yeah, probably around five or six people. We needed the extra space because we started working on the VLA.  I can’t remember the name of the guy who was organizing the – Sandy would know who he was.

Kellermann: 12:55

Organizing what?

Balister: 12:57

The building. We hired extra ladies to assemble staff.

Locke: 13:04

The VLA assemblers.

Balister: 13:05

Yeah. The VLA assemblers, have you heard of that?

Locke: 13:07

Yes. I was talking to a friend, Frankie [Françoise Johnson] , yesterday, and she said that there was--

Balister: 13:11

Yeah. I was going to suggest if you want to know the state of the women at NRAO, talk to Frankie, she’ll tell you.

Locke: 13:16

Yep. That's for sure. Though she was the first one to come in, and she was like, "You need this one, and you need this one." And she remembered that there was four VLA assembler female women--

Balister: 13:26

[crosstalk].

Locke: 13:26

--that worked at CDL. Yeah, though she didn't remember either, but there are some names that sort of came up, but we don't know if they are any of those. So maybe if I look in the quarterly reports they will find them. They seem to be pretty good about hirings and people leaving and names and things like that.

Balister: 13:42

And I'll eventually remember the names in the middle of the night.

Locke: 13:50

So there was a building before Ivy Road, was this General Dynamics building?

Balister: 13:54

No, it was called the Dynamics Building. I think you had it written on the top.

Kellermann: 14:01

It was commercial--

Bouton: 14:02

It's on [inaudible]

Locke: 14:03

Oh, that's the one that's just a little bit-- okay.

Balister: 14:05

And it's near the university [inaudible]

Bouton: 14:09

So this is from 1980, these photos, but I don't know.

Kellermann: 14:13

It was rented space.

Balister: 14:15

We could have bought that building for $300,000. I talked to Ted Riffe about it. He said, "AUI says we can't legally buildings and stuff like that. I could have bought it, rented it back to NRAO. The rent was like $100,000 a year. I’d have cleared it in three years!

Kellermann: 14:36

And you could sell it now, probably for a couple of million.

Balister: 14:39

Yeah. To the University. Somebody [inaudible]

Kellermann: 14:46

Tucson?

Balister: 14:47

Yes. We started with the 36 foot, and it was sort of a domain of the German guy who--

Kellermann: 15:01

Mezger.

Balister: 15:02

Peter Mezger and there was another guy.

Kellermann: 15:03

Oh, [Schraml?]

Balister: 15:05

No. The bolometer guy.

Kellermann: 15:06

Oh, Frank Low.

Balister: 15:09

Frank Low. And that's a bit before my time. I did think I did meet him once, I think.

Kellermann: 15:14

I was thinking a little bit after.

Balister: 15:19

Well, he thought [inaudible] into the 12 meter.

Kellermann: 15:22

No, not that far. But even before that.

Balister: 15:29

John Payne eventually went from Green Bank.

Kellermann: 15:32

But so the people in charge there were first, George Grove, then Ned Conklin, and then Mark Gordon for a long time. How were the relations between CDL and Electronics there. Who did what? Who built what?

Balister: 15:53

I think initially they were quite good. The problem was we were supplying them with devices. They'd sometimes zap them and then complain, this sort of thing. I mean, in those days of [inaudible], equipment was pretty hairy. But I think that problem, backwards and forwards, I think got amplified by John Payne winding up Mark Gordon. And then Mark then made nasty remarks in user meetings. Not that bad. And then eventually, John took over. That's when John and I started not being able to get along very well.

Kellermann: 16:43

So you say that you'd send stuff out there and they would--

Balister: 16:49

Talk to Tony.

Kellermann: 16:50

--mess it up.

Locke: 16:51

They'd shock it.

Kellermann: 16:52

I've been going through some of the Tucson stuff, and their version is that you'd send stuff out there that didn't work, and it would arrive the day before it was supposed to go in the telescope.

Balister: 17:06

Well, I mean, we were always in a panic doing stuff. I mean, those were difficult times. And you guys were working on a schedule, observing schedule, which was bound.

Kellermann: 17:22

Well, somewhere along the line, NRAO adopted the policy of not accepting proposals until particular equipment was shown to be working.

Balister: 17:33

Yeah. The equipment not being in a cupboard in Green Bank. But I mean, I didn't mind that. I used to like drawing stuff together at the last moment, and so, I mean, we operated in those days more like a university would, I think. And a lot of the people, I think their training and background was university, where they're tying together a string, duct tape. But Sandy was the one that started-- and Art Robichaud, those two guys started turning it into a professional organization. Like I say in that note that I wrote, one of NRAO’s biggest mistakes was not to encourage Sandy to stay.

Kellermann: 18:21

Okay. What can you tell us about-- that's getting ahead, jumping ahead, but I only vaguely remember the circumstances why he left. He wanted to teach?

Balister: 18:32

I think he wanted to teach. He wanted access to smart people, and he wanted money, and he wanted to be able-- not personal money. He wanted to upgrade things. And I think maybe he felt like the same as some of the people did, that the group was sort of [inaudible]. I mean, it was obviously important. You guys couldn't have done anything without receivers. And this ALMA project, for example, those SIS devices, I'm not sure whether now there are any other suppliers, but UVA has been critical, sometimes depending on one person.

Kellermann: 19:14

Yeah, let's come back to that. But Sandy, did he ask for things here that Heeschen wasn't willing to give him? Or did he just decide to go off? Because he went to-- first he went to the industry, Bendix or something.

Balister: 19:30

He spent a year or so teaching a course a UVA.

Kellermann: 19:33

That was on sabbatical. That was on leave. And then he sort of didn't come back, I think, or he came back just for a very short time.

Balister: 19:42

Yeah. And he was going to go to Hughes, and then at the last minute he turned down the job offer, I think partly because Margie wasn't happy living in California, which is where they had to be. And then he went to work for the big defense contractor. And he worked there for about five or six years doing [crosstalk].

Kellermann: 20:13

[crosstalk]. Yeah.

Balister: 20:15

I don't know if it's Bendix.

Locke: 20:16

I think it was Martin Marietta [crosstalk].

Balister: 20:18

That's right, Martin Marietta [crosstalk].

Kellermann: 20:18

Oh, you're right. That's right.

Balister: 20:22

And then he worked there a few years. I remember asking him-- he was always writing letters. As you guys know, Sandy, he was always free to his opinions and things. He was writing letters to the president of the company. And I asked him how many management levels he was below that. And I think he said seven [laughter]. I'm not sure if he said seven or eight. But I think [inaudible].

Kellermann: 20:49

I'll have to ask him because I always wondered about that.

Balister: 20:52

Yeah. I asked him.

Kellermann: 20:52

No, he was top. He was at the top of the management ladder here, which is technical.

Balister: 20:56

Yeah, and I think that's why he was number seven in Martin Marietta.

Kellermann: 20:59

Yeah. He was just another engineer.

Balister: 21:03

Well, he was a bit more than that. But I mean, he was doing work, which actually went to UMass well. And then from UMass-- and I remember, he tried to go to Caltech, and he insisted on getting a tenured position. And what's his name, the guy?

Kellermann: 21:24

Alan Moffet.

Balister: 21:25

Alan Moffet. He told him, "Don't be silly. They're not going to hire a tenured guy, just come and hang around and you’ll eventually get tenure [inaudible]."

Kellermann: 21:35

Yeah, well, I think that was probably correct. I mean, it's rare that they hire somebody into a tenured position.

Balister: 21:41

And I think he was really happy there-- he got in a bit of a trouble. He was making all this money, selling amplifiers. And the management of Caltech, the lawyers, got upset because it's a nonprofit organization. He was hauling in hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Kellermann: 21:59

This is more recently, though?

Balister: 22:01

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, this is more recent.

Kellermann: 22:03

And he still does. I mean, that's where he finances his whole operation, I think.

Balister: 22:08

Yeah, there's also a Swedish company now that's filling the gap right up to the present.

Kellermann: 22:16

Yeah. But I think he still finances his own activities.

Balister: 22:19

Yeah. He sends me emails occasionally.

Kellermann: 22:24

Yeah. I was seeing him a few times a year. Not so much in the last year or so.

Balister: 22:27

Yeah, I see him once a year.

Kellermann: 22:29

He would come to various meetings.

Balister: 22:33

He's probably the one guy I worked with who had the most influence on me and quite a few other people.

Locke: 22:41

For sure. I think he influenced generations. Even when I started, people were talking about Sandy Weinreb's amplifiers, Sandy Weinreb's receivers, Sandy Weinreb's--

Balister: 22:52

Well, don't say--

Locke: 22:52

--giant group over there.

Balister: 22:53

Don't say Sandy Weinreb's amplifiers, or I'm going to [inaudible] [laughter].

Locke: 22:56

No. Oh, no. I know. Yeah, I know there's definitely an ego. Is she [crosstalk]?

Balister: 23:03

I get on better with women than I do with guys [laughter].

Kellermann: 23:07

For my technical education, can we go through the various amplifiers and mixers that have come through the years? So in--

Balister: 23:20

Yeah. I mean, I think started the lower frequencies and moved up.

Kellermann: 23:22

Yeah. Yeah. But in Green Bank, I guess there was this era of paramps, which weren't very good for continuum work because of the pump.

Balister: 23:36

And they were a pain to work with as well.

Kellermann: 23:40

Why?

Balister: 23:42

Well, just the tuning of, a fairly narrow band. And people always trying to use them out of band. I mean, I remember the--

Kellermann: 23:51

The spectroscopists.

Balister: 23:52

Yeah, always [crosstalk].

Kellermann: 23:53

Yeah. There was always a line.

Locke: 23:54

All astronomers do that now. They just want wider and wider bandwidth.

Balister: 23:57

Palmer and Zuckerman.

Kellermann: 23:58

Yeah. No, there was always a line-- you build it for this frequency range line, but there was a line--

Locke: 24:04

Just outside.

Balister: 24:04

Kellermann:

Balister:

There was a paramp which had been ordered for C-band, five gigahertz. And was it Palmer And Zuckerman who came along? And they wanted to use it at 4830. And I said, "It won't tune that far." [inaudible] just put it, "Do the best you can." So I tuned it up and it had virtually no gain and everything. I said, "It won't work." And I went home. And they came in the next morning, and they were all smiles.

Formaldehyde.

Of course, they had a terrible slope on the baseline, but that was the beginning of the molecular line chasing.

Kellermann: 24:45

So then came HEMTs?

Balister: 24:52

Yes. You probably should talk to Marian. Sandy found Marian sitting on a park bench feeding pigeons, I think, in California, being paid a pittance. And I know that Marian spent a lot of time working on the theory of amplifiers which got Sandy a little upset. Because he wanted to see--

Kellermann: 25:24

Just build.

Balister: 25:25

Yeah, he wanted to see hardware. But the hardware eventually came.

Kellermann: 25:30

At what point were you starting to cool the amplifiers?

Balister: 25:38

Yes. I think I cooled one in Green Bank for interest, and it was basically still working. And the guys at AIL also tried cooling one. And then Sandy got involved. And I can't quite remember how much Sandy was involved in the initial days. But when Marian came, he sort of took over. But Sandy was involved, I think, maybe in the L-band amplifier. I think that was the first one that was sort of manufactured on a production basis.

Kellermann: 26:19

So this is important. Were we, we being you, the first to be using cooled amplifiers?

Balister: 26:35

Say it again. The first--?

Locke: 26:36

To cool the amplifiers. Who--?

Kellermann: 26:39

I don't mean which person, but was that being done elsewhere--

Locke: 26:42

Was that a group [inaudible]?

Kellermann: 26:43

--or was NRAO pioneered that?

Balister: 26:44

I think it was NRAO, really. I think AIL might have-- I think we might have had a minor contract with JPL. But it didn't produce anything better than what we were then doing. And they might have just got it off us guys.

Kellermann: 27:02

So these were--

Balister: 27:03

It's sort of blurred.

Kellermann: 27:05

This is important, though.

Balister: 27:07

I mean, I think- I used to have a folder with all the emails. I remember writing an email about some measurements I'd done because I sent them to Sandy.

Kellermann: 27:20

Well, this would've been before email days.

Balister: 27:23

Yeah. You'd think so. But what is something I wrote? [I don't remember?]. All the stuff I wrote was in a big folder and it disappeared. I don't know where it went.

Kellermann: 27:34

Well, first of all, these are--

Balister: 27:36

I mean, one thing I could do is look through that. I'm not going to find something in there.

Kellermann: 27:39

These are cooled with liquid nitrogen.

Balister: 27:43

With liquid nitrogen, initially, and then on the CTI refrigerators, which we were using anyway for cooling the paramps. So we were--

Kellermann: 27:52

Oh, the paramps were cooled, were they?

Balister: 27:54

Oh, yes. Definitely.

Locke: 27:56

How cold did they go to?

Balister: 27:57

20 Kelvin. Yeah. 20 Kelvin.

Locke: 27:58

Okay. Same as [inaudible].

Balister: 28:02

And then there were the masers.

Kellermann: 28:03

Well, wait. Okay, wait a minute.

Balister: 28:04

Yeah, and that was Craig Moore. That's the name can never forget. He was one of the better--

Kellermann: 28:11

Michele's still in contact with him once a year or something.

Balister: 28:18

Yeah, we stopped getting Christmas cards because we changed our address. I think we send emails. Yeah. The paramps, we cooled, and we were getting them from AIL and TRG. And we did quite a bit of work with AIL.

Kellermann: 28:38

And these are all nondegenerate paramps except for--

Balister: 28:42

The earliest ones that were used on the interferometer were degenerate.

Kellermann: 28:46

Yeah, the interferometer ones. Right.

Balister: 28:48

They came from AIL because I visited AIL several times. And the funny thing was I was an alien, and I'd worked on highly secret projects in England, and I was sworn to secrecy. Some of them I dare not even talk about now. I was going to put something in there and I didn't. I thought you would spread it around. And then AIL, I go and talk to the guys on the bench. They tell me about all these classified projects and things. And apparently, the people I talked to had to fill out a form after I'd gone asking what questions I'd asked, but I never got in trouble or anything. But the security in the US was no way comparable to security in England at the time. Well, when the places were closed they'd let dogs loose in the building so that people got into steal secrets they got attacked by dogs. It's ludicrous. I was scared of working late. [laughter] I got visited by the Assistant Secretary of Defense of the United States in England because we were working on a project which I found out later was for the U-2 Program which you can sort of read about that on the internet now.

Kellermann: 30:17

So aside from the paramps, those are HEMTs that were cooled to liquid nitrogen?

Balister: 30:36

Yeah. I think you got to talk to Sandy and Marian there. I think I knew all the answers to the questions, but some things I remember.

Kellermann: 30:52

So the Green Bank people, Howard Brown, and then what was his chief cryogenics person? Dave?

Balister: 31:05

Oh, Dave Williams.

Kellermann: 31:06

Williams, Dave Williams.

Balister: 31:11

And I think there was another guy. His wife ran a kindergarten in Green Bank.

Kellermann: 31:19

Troy Henderson.

Balister: 31:21

Yeah, Troy Henderson.

Kellermann: 31:23

He was in the cryogenics, too?  But he was a 140 foot operator.

Balister: 31:27

Yeah. I think Troy might have been in charge of Dave. And then there was another guy, a sort of hydraulics guy. I'd recognize his name if you said it. He was one of the local Green Bank guys.

Kellermann: 31:46

The cryogenics, though?

Balister: 31:49

No, no.

Kellermann: 31:50

No, I was talking about back to the cryogenics. The Green Bank cryogenics group made some important modifications to the CTI refrigerators.

Balister: 32:03

Howard Brown was very close to the CTI guys. I mean, CTI sold that same thing without much modification for 20, 30 years. They ended up in MRI machines. That's where the big market eventually came. And I don't know that he made big modifications. The biggest sort of improvement that Howard Brown was they were involved in putting a JT circuit on the CTI refrigerator. When you expand the gas through a nozzle and the medium liquifies, you end up with [inaudible] degrees, and we used those refrigerators for the maser. I mean, that's an important thing. And the masers we used at 22 gigahertz. And I think we inherited the design from JPL, Bob Klaus, I think.

Kellermann: 33:11

The maser design. Yeah. Right. Yes.

Balister: 33:12

Maser design. And [inaudible]--

Kellermann: 33:14

Chuck went there. Yeah.

Balister: 33:15

--stayed there.

Kellermann: 33:16

Yeah. I remember that. Yeah.

Balister: 33:23

And that was a big improvement. The maser noise temperature for water lineups [crosstalk]--

Kellermann: 33:28

But useless for continuum.

Locke: 33:30

Yep. Good for [inaudible].

Kellermann: 33:34

Yeah. Goes there, narrow band. That I thought I remembered that Green Bank made significant improvements to the CTI system. And by agreement, CTI could then use that. We had a patent but by agreement--

Balister: 33:59

Yeah. I don't remember any of those details. I'm not sure I was really involved [crosstalk]--

Kellermann: 34:05

Because I was still living there and you had left already, so. But then I wasn't paying that much attention to these things.

Balister: 34:12

Yeah. I don't know. I'm not sure how you even find out now. Everybody's gone.

Kellermann: 34:18

Yes. Well, actually it may be in some records because I--

Balister: 34:25

Well, it might.

Kellermann: 34:27

Well, no business records, because I'm pretty sure that I was part of the contract with CTI that they had the rights to reproduce and sell what we had done, and in return, we got a special price for the--

Balister: 34:46

I can't remember. There were no major changes. I mean, I think the were more or less interchangeable. They might have had different suppliers for some of the bushings and things, but there were no major changes. I mean, CTI made money off those refrigerators. I’m not sure what happened on the VLA. We actually, at one stage switched to their products on the prototype antennas at the VLA and they were so noisy. They used to shake all the screws loose on the amplifiers and things, and we had to go back to CTI. And the reason we went to its products was that we got a better price. So I don't think CTI-- I think they were giving us a big discount or anything. And pick the guy. Oh, the guy who took over the cryogenics in Socorro.

Locke: 35:45

Rudy.

Balister: 35:46

Rudy. You're good. Young brain.

Locke: 35:53

He's still there.

Balister: 35:54

Is he still there?

Locke: 35:55

He trains. When I was working in Arecibo, our one cryogenics guy knew of him, so he talked to him. He went to Socorro for a week. Rudy took him under his wing, trained him, gave him all kinds of great information. He came over to Arecibo. Yeah. And then now he's just training other people from Rudy. So Rudy's kind of like a--

Balister: 36:17

Yeah. Rudy's an important guy.

Locke: 36:19

--[inaudible].

Balister: 36:20

[inaudible]. Yeah. And he's a local guy.

Locke: 36:24

Yeah. He lives in Magdalena. He has a beautiful house with a porch all the way around it. It's white and blue. It just sticks right over.

Balister: 36:30

[inaudible].

Locke: 36:32

It's wonderful. [inaudible] from the road.

Balister: 36:36

My old red VW Passat goes still [inaudible]. I sold it to Peter Napier before I went to Australia.

Kellermann: 36:45

Were you ever involved in the six-centimeter maser? That may have been before you came. They paid half a million dollars to AIL, never worked.

Balister: 36:59

No. I think it was ordered before I came.

Kellermann: 37:01

Yeah. I think that.

Balister: 37:03

It was a paramp I remember, six centimeters. And that was widely.

Kellermann: 37:08

Yeah. I used that. Yeah.

Balister: 37:09

All the recombination line was done with that. And that cost like $100,000. I mean, we were spending money if you convert it into today's dollars--

Kellermann: 37:23

Right. It was real money.

Balister: 37:23

--it's millions. It's real money. I mean, you know what caused the decreasing expenditures? Damn computers. All money started going into computers.

Kellermann: 37:41

Now tell me about the series of-- again, I don't know much more about these things than the words, but one replaced another and what was used for what? We had HEMTs and then HFETs, whatever. Is that the--

Balister: 38:01

Yeah, I think that makes it the same thing. It's just different name. [inaudible].

Locke: 38:10

Mobility transition.

Kellermann: 38:10

Mobility transition. Yeah.

Balister: 38:13

I got a feeling the HEMT might be going out fashion. But [inaudible] it's all anything to do with that--

Locke: 38:21

Marian knows that. Marian knows that.

Balister: 38:24

Yeah. He can talk to Marian. Does he talk to you?

Locke: 38:27

Sometimes when he wants something.

Kellermann: 38:32

It's hard to get--

Locke: 38:33

He actually goes in and talks to Sri for about an hour every single day. I don't know.

Kellermann: 38:39

It's hard to get him not to talk. I'm surprised. You got to be careful what you ask him because--

Balister: 38:45

What did you say on this then?

Kellermann: 38:47

I say it's hard to get him not to talk.

Balister: 38:49

Yes. But getting him to talk about something [crosstalk] divergence very quickly.

Kellermann: 38:55

So in Tucson though, the first receivers were just simple mixer receivers?

Balister: 39:09

Yeah. Schottky mixers. With the chips that we got from UVA. That was the initial work with Bob Mattauch.

Kellermann: 39:21

They weren't--

Balister: 39:23

Tom Crowe you could talk to. He was there.

Kellermann: 39:27

The very first ones weren't just commercial diodes or?

Balister: 39:32

No, I don't think. I got some Sperry diodes. There might have been a commercial diode or two in the very first mixer on the VLA.

Kellermann: 39:45

No, I was thinking of Tucson, nine millimeters, three millimeters. All right. Tell me about the UVA work. I'm really showing my ignorance here, how you build these devices.

Balister: 40:02

Well, they started off making Schottky diodes, but which have got a whole series of little holes, like one micron across, and you have to-- it's like the old cat's whisker days. That's what they started out with. And then--

Kellermann: 40:21

Wait minute, these devices were built one at a time, or?

Balister: 40:27

Basically. Well, I mean, you get a wafer with a whole bunch of chips on it.

Kellermann: 40:32

Well, that's what I don't understand. This is something I've always wanted to know, but been afraid to ask. I mean, no, I told you I can't understand. But maybe Lisa can explain it.

Locke: 40:48

They do this now-- they do this now, too. Like, they get a wafer. Frankie gets a--

Kellermann: 40:53

Wait a minute. Wait, Again, I've heard that word many times. What do you mean by a wafer?

Locke: 40:58

It looks like a CD. It's shiny. It comes from some foundry, and it's got tiny little active elements or diodes or mixers or -.

Balister: 41:07

Is [inaudible]. It's similar to the stuff that these big semiconductor companies do to [crosstalk].

Kellermann: 41:15

So they're etched onto?

Locke: 41:17

Somehow it's grown onto this metal or silicone disk.

Balister: 41:23

Tony Kerr.

Locke: 41:24

Yeah, Tony will tell you. And then you can cut them up and then you [crosstalk].

Kellermann: 41:28

Yeah. How do you cut them up?

Locke: 41:29

I don't know. They use this word called splicing or dicing, something.

Kellermann: 41:34

Dicing. Yeah, I've heard of that.

Locke: 41:36

So something.

Balister: 41:36

A tiny little blade.

Locke: 41:37

Frankie does this. She's the dicer, so she takes them off and then she gives them to Eric. Eric is the assembler, and he, using microscopes and very, very still hands, takes the actual junction and puts it into the block or whatever they're making. And then he has to solder onto it the connections. And then they cool in.

Balister: 42:01

These are the SIS devices, which was the next step.

Kellermann: 42:05

Yes. That's the next thing on my list.

Locke: 42:07

But they have junctions. I don't know how the previous ones were made.

Balister: 42:13

Yeah. Talk to Tony. [inaudible]. He'll stay on track as well.

Kellermann: 42:24

He was hired by Sandy because Sandy knew him from somewhere.

Balister: 42:28

A lot of the best people were hired by other engineers. I'm not so sure about getting the scientific staff involved in hiring engineers. But anyway, that's just a pet peeve.

Kellermann: 42:42

I'm not sure they ever were.

Balister: 42:44

Well, when the sites [split up?]. The famous George--

Kellermann: 42:51

That's another issue, right.

Balister: 42:52

Yeah. People want control of people [crosstalk].

Kellermann: 42:57

Yeah. So when Sandy left, Mike was in charge of Green Bank Electronics. But you reported to Sandy, right?

Balister: 43:08

Yeah, or Hein.

Kellermann: 43:09

Yeah. But he reported to somebody in Charlottesville. And then after Mike left, that continued under a series of Green Bank site directors until George Seielstad who wanted--

Balister: 43:21

Yeah. He started the conversation. But then at the VLA it was the same. VLA was a big organization and they wanted to control it. And I'm not quite sure. I can't think of any specific [inaudible]. But, I mean, some of the better people were still around that were hired by Rick Fisher, Larry D’Addario, and Sandy Weinreb. One or two that I hired [inaudible].

Locke: 43:50

Who? Do you remember their names?

Balister: 43:53

Nancyjane Bailey.

Locke: 43:54

Oh, you hired Nancyjane?

Balister: 43:56

Yes.

Locke: 43:56

Oh, wow. She was the first engineer that I knew that was at Ivy Rd..

Balister: 44:00

Yeah. And there was Frankie. But I mean Nancyjane [inaudible] was the only resume I ever saw from a woman.

Locke: 44:14

Oh, okay. There just wasn't-- it just didn't exist.

Balister: 44:16

They didn’t exist. [inaudible]. I forgot what we were talking about.

Kellermann: 44:27

Mixers, SIS mixers. Oh, Frank Kerr. Not Frank-- Tony Kerr.

Balister: 44:41

Yeah. I knew Frank Kerr in Australia.

Kellermann: 44:42

What specifically has Tony done all these years?

Balister: 44:54

I don't know. He’s sort of the resident guru. Well, he always was to some extent. I mean, he was involved in some early paramp design at Radiophysics. They complained at Radiophysics about his amplifiers not being stable as well. But I mean, he interacted a lot with UVA, but he's always been a little bit above the guys working at the bench. But I mean, he's been a good guy.

Kellermann: 45:30

He was hired into a tenured position.

Locke: 45:32

Wow. Okay. [inaudible].

Balister: 45:32

He was, directly?

Kellermann: 45:34

Yeah. I think so. Sandy insisted on it as I remember it.

Balister: 45:39

I should have known that. I didn't know that. I know it was always difficult when it came to pay raise time because he was getting more money than I was. Decide how much more to give him.

Kellermann: 45:51

Well, he and Sandy were the only PhD, I think. And that was two for a long time, I think.

Locke: 46:01

Oh, I think Pan came.

Kellermann: 46:03

Oh, that was later. Yeah.

Balister: 46:04

There's Pan, well, there's Marian. I mean, there's a lot now. I mean, I was sort of the oddball.

Kellermann: 46:11

Yeah. Yeah. Rich, I mean Rich. Yeah. But until what, 1980 or something they were the only two.

Balister: 46:22

Oh, Jo Edrich, actually he became a physician. He became an expert on--

Kellermann: 46:30

Imaging.

Balister: 46:31

--imaging. Ladies' breasts, so he became a physician. I think he runs a big institute now in Germany. I think if you put his name in Google and [it?] comes up. I'm not sure he mentions that he ever worked for NRAO, but he did for several years.

Kellermann: 46:49

Ron Bracewell was one of the inventors of MRI. So works the same as [inaudible]. He's been recognized for that.

Balister: 47:08

Yeah. I think you should talk to a lot of these and John Webber as well. Because we haven't even mentioned the MAP program. I mean, that should have been a big feather in NRAO’s because it actually all worked and produced the results. And that was--

Kellermann: 47:33

Why do you say should have been? I think I know the answer. Go ahead. It was a feather in NRAO’s.

Balister: 47:42

Yeah. I mean it all happened after I'd gone. So I don't know quite what happened. I know initially setting it up. I mean, Marian was about to go to JPL, being offered a job there. And I was going to get Richard Bradley to take over, because I did the original quote for those amplifiers that went into the [inaudible].

Kellermann: 48:05

W-MAP. W-MAP.

Balister: 48:07

[inaudible] with the Wilkinson, W-MAP. And I thought it would've been good for Marian to work at JPL and find out how real organizations worked. But Wilkinson insisted on Marian staying. So Marian stayed and yeah, they contracted out quite a bit of the work on the amplifiers, but Marian was basically in charge. And there was a guy who's now working at NASA.

Locke: 48:38

Ed Wollack.

Balister: 48:39

Ed Wollack. He, I think was very involved in it. I'm not sure how much John Webber. I think he handle a lot of the day-to-day stuff over, but I wasn't there at the time. I just picked up stuff by osmosis.

Kellermann: 49:00

Well, I thought you might be getting to the sore point that-- God, I forgot his name. You just mentioned him.

Balister: 49:09

Ed Wollack.

Kellermann: 49:10

Yeah. He wanted to be involved scientifically in the program. And he had been earlier. And I believe whoever was in charge of the CDL then wouldn't let him, "You're an engineer. Stick to engineering."

Balister: 49:29

That might have been John Webber.

Kellermann: 49:31

And he left because-- so I thought you might've been leading up to that when you said--

Balister: 49:35

No. I didn't know about that.

Kellermann: 49:36

--that it might have been a feather in NRAO’s cap because he could have played more significant role scientifically because it still--

Balister: 49:47

Yeah. He must've been a good guy to keep [crosstalk], yeah. He has a little bit of a problem getting on with people-- not seriously, but I know he used to get in arguments with Green Bank workshop, for example.

Kellermann: 50:02

Yeah. He would've been another early PhD.

Balister: 50:04

And everything he wrote was sort of a little bit weird. I found out later he was dyslexic. Yeah. But he was a-- and I think in the end-- when he first came, I wanted him to work closely with Marian. And I think he did in the end. But I was gone by then, so.

Kellermann: 50:30

I'm not even sure -

Balister: 50:32

I mean, that should be mentioned that NRAO's support. Because that's probably one of the biggest things that--

Kellermann: 50:38

Yeah. That's a good point.

Balister: 50:39

And again, Marian can tell you a little bit about that.

Kellermann: 50:42

We could check. We have his record. So I think Ed actually originally came on the scientific staff and transferred to CDL because he got paid more.

Balister: 50:59

Well, is that my fault?

Kellermann: 51:01

No. Our whole salary scale-- I mean, we had to pay-- you had to pay PhD engineers certain amount because--

Balister: 51:08

I can't remember if I hired him or whether he just showed up.

Kellermann: 51:12

Because it was competing with industry, whereas the scientists, astronomers, dime a dozen.

Balister: 51:19

[inaudible] once told me that-- instead of getting engineers, he says astronomers were 10 a penny. And those were his exact words.

Kellermann: 51:31

Well, it's still true. We have to compete with--

Balister: 51:32

[crosstalk].

Kellermann: 51:32

We have to compete with industry.

Balister: 51:35

Yeah. I mean, I was offered a lot more money to not come to NRAO. But I was getting a bit fed up with the military electronics field and not being able to talk about stuff that I was doing for fear of getting locked up.

Bouton: 51:50

Sent to the dogs.

Kellermann: 51:55

Okay. That's a good point to mention the MAP project. I guess we'll have to talk to Marian.

Balister: 52:03

I was trying to think. It's difficult to bypass Marian except by talking to Sandy. But Sandy had gone by then, so.

Kellermann: 52:12

Yeah. Well, we can always get ahold of him.

Balister: 52:16

I mean, Ed Wollack-- and if you going to write up quite a bit about the MAP Project, you should talk to Ed Wollack and John Webber. John might have-- I mean John was-- when he said something, he meant it.

Kellermann: 52:40

So I didn't remember. He was here already for that. Was he?

Balister: 52:45

Yeah. Well, he took over from me.

Kellermann: 52:48

When you retired.

Balister: 52:48

Yeah. And Paul told me I couldn't retire until I found a replacement. So I wrote the advertisement and everything. This is before the Human Resources group. I wrote that and he was sort of an obvious guy because he knew NRL. He was a good digital guy, which was my weak point.

Kellermann: 53:19

Did he respond to an ad or did you actually seek him out?

Balister: 53:22

No, I think I advertised in the same place, the MTT, the IEEE MTT because that's where-- and we also have-- we used to advertise in the Manchester Guardian in England. That's how we picked up people for Cambridge and so forth. We got one or two people that way and but often we would get them and interview them and they'd go and work for JPL or Caltech, we lost one guy to Caltech. That was one of the reasons Sandy went, he got access to the best graduate students, usually foreign born.

Kellermann: 54:04

Now it's not only foreign, it's Asian.

Balister: 54:07

Yeah. Half the graduate students at UVA are Asian. And the funny thing is they get sent back to China when they finished. So they're taking all the technology they're learning back with them. And there's some equipment they can't use, but the equipment's made by China anyway. This is equipment in the labs. I mean, what's his name at UVA? Crazy rules.

Kellermann: 54:42

Well, I was a graduate student at Caltech, then of course we didn't have any contact with China. And so what these kids would do they go from China to Taiwan and then apply to graduate school. But they were quite open in talking to other students that they were going back to China. And these are the people who literally built the nuclear weapons and rockets. It's in the '60s.

Balister: 55:17

Bascom Deaver. He's the guy I talked to. He's in the Physics department. Bascom Deaver.

Kellermann: 55:24

Yeah. Name's familiar. Right. What did he do?

Balister: 55:28

He still works. He's even older than you and I.

Kellermann: 55:32

But why'd you bring up his name?

Balister: 55:35

He told me about the Chinese students and equipment they're not supposed to use, which was made in China anyway [laughter]. They get all sorts of rules and regulations for the government.

Kellermann: 55:53

So I asked you about what were the best things done at the CDL and NRAO and so you mentioned the MAP as something NRAO should be proud of.  Anything else? But from what we talked about before, we'd say the [crosstalk] cooled amplifiers.

Balister: 56:19

I mean, that's the area and correlator design. I'm not quite sure how much other people have been influenced, but I think John Webber's probably the one of the world experts on that sort of thing.

Kellermann: 56:32

On what?

Balister: 56:33

Correlator design. And Ray Escoffier, he's also an important guy.

Locke: 56:41

Wasn’t Sandy's PhD on correlators?

Kellermann: 56:43

Yeah.

Balister: 56:44

Yes. Yeah.

Kellermann: 56:45

And then the--

Balister: 56:46

Very basic [inaudible].

Kellermann: 56:46

Yeah, which never got published anywhere except in a--

Balister: 56:52

Sandy had to fight to get his PhD because all he made was a bit of hardware. He did a few observations with it--

Kellermann: 56:58

Well, he did have to observe it there.

Balister: 57:00

I think they questioned the other one. Whether was suitable PhD material.

Kellermann: 57:04

Yeah, you can only find it in a report of the radio, RLE lab. But then Shalloway built the next generation of--

Balister: 57:19

Yeah, he worked with Sandy. Bob Moses worked on the RF antenna.

Kellermann: 57:27

Yeah. But sorry, who'd you say after Shalloway? Oh, Ray Escoffier

Locke: 57:33

Ray Escoffier.

Balister: 57:34

Ray Escoffier. And he's still involved with the [crosstalk].

Kellermann: 57:37

I know. I know [crosstalk]. We saw him.

Balister: 57:44

He comes periodically. I think they can hire him a month at a time.

Kellermann: 57:48

Yeah. And he also came to some celebration or social thing or something.

Balister: 57:54

He might have been here for that Chinese thing. I know Sandy came. There was a meeting with the Chinese astronomers just a year ago.

Kellermann: 58:05

Yeah. Yeah, I organized it.

Balister: 58:11

No, I think he comes periodically, he’s still advising. And Rich Lacasse is now in the same--

Kellermann: 58:21

In the same?

Balister: 58:21

Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of people now that I haven't mentioned who should be mentioned, but I don't know, in some cases, who they are. I'm familiar with the people who have been around a long time, like Sri [Sri Srikanth], for example. Sri did all the feed design and [inaudible].

Kellermann: 58:39

Yeah, I know that. Yeah.

Balister: 58:41

I'm glad it all worked out. It used to worry me. [laughter] You only had to slip a few [digits?] and the feed design work [inaudible]. Peter Napier was also involved. Peter Napier was also a good hire. And I think he came in as a postdoc. Yeah, same with Larry D’Addario. They were two good [inaudible].

Kellermann: 59:06

Where? On the scientific stuff?

Balister: 59:15

Both Peter and Larry showed up when I was in Australia, so I don't know quite how they got hired. I was there. So they came between 1974 and '76. [crosstalk]--

Kellermann: 59:36

So in spite of what I may have told you--

Balister: 59:40

--Dick Thompson.

Kellermann: 59:40

--one or other of them, may have been research associates.

Locke: 59:44

Well, Peter Napier was attending the weekly EVLA meetings, the technical ones. He was kind of the--

Kellermann: 59:53

That was much later though, and I'm talking about when they were first--

Locke: 59:57

Oh, when they first came in?

Kellermann: 59:57

--came to NRAO.

Locke: 59:59

I don't think Peter Napier was classified as an engineer. I think he was still an astronomer--

Kellermann: 01:00:03

No, on the scientific staff.

Locke: 01:00:06

Yeah, scientific staff.

Kellermann: 01:00:08

And I think Larry also.

Balister: 01:00:12

Larry might have been the same. It was a little unusual to have them.

Locke: 01:00:17

Yeah, because they knew both sides.

Balister: 01:00:19

Yeah. That was the good point about both those guys. And then of course, there was Dick Thompson. He had his experience at Stanford where--

Kellermann: 01:00:31

Yeah, but he was hired into the VLA as an engineer.

Locke: 01:00:36

That's the A.R. Thompson person?

Kellermann: 01:00:38

Yeah.

Balister: 01:00:38

Yeah.

Locke: 01:00:38

Okay. Only known him from reading stuff about him.

Kellermann: 01:00:42

He's still here in Charlottesville, in Westminster-Canterbury.

Balister: 01:00:47

In Westminster-Canterbury?

Kellermann: 01:00:48

Yeah, he doesn't come to lunch, and we invited him.

Balister: 01:00:52

What is it Bob Brown used to say that we're all going to end up in Westminster-Canterbury, and they'll be like old days. We'll all be back together again. The only problem is, we will have forgotten each other. [laughter] Unfortunately, Bob Brown is no longer with us.

Kellermann: 01:01:17

We have this lunch group of retirees and others. And Dick stopped coming, apparently because all we’d talk about was US, American sports.

Balister: 01:01:27

Well, that was my theory [laughter] as I find that the-- I know I've come to one or two games. I don't even understand the rules.

Kellermann: 01:01:36

Well, I don't understand the cricket.

Balister: 01:01:38

Cricket's much easier.

Kellermann: 01:01:40

Now, cricket and baseball are the same.

Balister: 01:01:42

No, they're not.

Kellermann: 01:01:42

They're the same in that you really have to understand the rules and the strategy because they're both terribly slow. But if you really understand the game, you could appreciate it. Whereas, American football and rugby, you can see the action. You don't have to [laughter] understand the rules. All you have to know is you have to get from one side to the other.

Balister: 01:02:05

Yeah. I haven't seen them [inaudible] since Christmas party two years ago.

Kellermann: 01:02:10

That's right. They used to come to the--

Balister: 01:02:12

Because I asked him if his book was being published. [Interferometry and Synthesis in Radio Astronomy]  Oh, that's right. You were going to buy me a copy at a discounted price, Dick’s interferometry book, because it's like $55 paperback version [inaudible]--

Kellermann: 01:02:33

$49 or something, yeah. I think I get a 20% discount or something. I forgot. Sorry, I'll do that.

Balister: 01:02:38

That's all right. I probably wouldn't read it in detail.

Kellermann: 01:02:43

It's pretty detailed. [laughter] You know the book?

Locke: 01:02:46

Yeah, I think there are like four copies upstairs. [laughter]

Balister: 01:02:49

Maybe I'll come by and [inaudible] [laughter].

Locke: 01:02:53

I'm sure they'd let you have it for an extended period of time.

Bouton: 01:02:57

[crosstalk] [laughter].

Balister: 01:02:57

[crosstalk].

Kellermann: 01:02:59

Okay--

Locke: 01:03:00

[inaudible].

Kellermann: 01:03:02

--so the good things were MAP and cooled amplifiers and correlators.

Balister: 01:03:14

Yeah, and, I mean, generally influencing other radio astronomy groups. I mean, we have a lot of visitors and [crosstalk].

Kellermann: 01:03:23

A lot of built--

Balister: 01:03:25

We even had Chinese visitors come touring the lab.

Kellermann: 01:03:31

We built the amplifiers--

Balister: 01:03:34

And we sold a lot of amplifiers.

Kellermann: 01:03:36

Not only for other observatories, but for various commercial--

Balister: 01:03:42

No, I don't think we sold any of them to commercial organizations. I don't think there's any ended up in missiles, that would really have upset me. They were all research organizations. Some might have been-- you might want to talk to, what's his name?  Richard Bradley. I think he's the one guy I was sort of alluding to working with outside groups and projects which weren't directly related to NRAO. At one stage I was a bit anti that. We were taking our best brains to work on projects for other people.

Kellermann: 01:04:38

Well--

Balister: 01:04:39

[crosstalk] that was a great idea, so all right. [crosstalk]--

Kellermann: 01:04:45

Was this part of the tension that you referred to earlier? Research engineers like the tenured scientific staff was supposed to have a certain amount of time for research, or independent.

Balister: 01:05:00

Yeah, okay.

Locke: 01:05:02

And from the outside, when I worked at Arecibo, we all knew that CDL had the best amplifiers, and NRAO was nice because it had sort of a collection of where all the brains were, and they were very accessible. You would write to them, you could phone them. Arecibo got all of their amplifiers from Marian, and whenever we would blow them up because we had our transmitter going, we would send them to [laughter] Rich Bradley. And we would send them with a whole bunch of candy and a really nice note, and there was never any cost associated with it. He would fix it on his own time, and then he'd send it back. So every couple of months, at least when I was there, we would have to do this, and it was kind of a quid pro quo. And I don't think they ever they did anything, well, I don't think we ever did anything for them except be very nice to them.

Balister: 01:05:52

What year was that?

Locke: 01:05:53

That was 2000 to 2005.

Balister: 01:05:57

I was no longer in charge. So I didn't know about that.

Kellermann: 01:05:59

These were by and large cooled HEMTs?

Balister: 01:06:02

Yeah.

Locke: 01:06:03

Yeah. And NRAO was big in hosting all of the SIS knowledge for almost everybody in the world. So, yeah.

Balister: 01:06:22

But the funny thing was we get visitors from other places. I think it was the Chinese that said when they saw our labs over in Ivy Road, were surprised how rundown the place looked. They were expecting to see piles of fancy equipment and this sort of thing. I remember Sandy fussed a bit about that. He got them to put a carpet in the hall. I think it was the Chinese that said that, because they knew our reputation when they showed up, and they saw these Apple IIE's [laughter] test equipment. I don't know if they still use them but they were [crosstalk].

Locke: 01:07:03

No.

Kellermann: 01:07:03

No, I think they've finally been retired.

Balister: 01:07:05

Yeah. And the reason they were still using them was the software [inaudible].

Kellermann: 01:07:08

I know, I know. Right. Yeah, sure.

Balister: 01:07:10

They didn't want to rewrite the software.

Kellermann: 01:07:11

Sure, sure, sure. Okay. But you just mentioned SIS devices, so that was a successor to?

Locke: 01:07:23

I think that was definitely one of the stars in NRAO's hat and still is.

Kellermann: 01:07:29

And that was mostly Tony's work.

Balister: 01:07:31

Tony and Pan and UVA.

Kellermann: 01:07:34

Well, UVA because of Bob Mattauch.

Balister: 01:07:37

I was always scared he'd get hit by a bus [inaudible].

Locke: 01:07:40

He's still going strong. Pan had a retirement party on Thursday and I took a whole bunch of pictures. Art was there and the guy that Mike--

Kellermann: 01:07:49

Art Shalloway?

Locke: 01:07:51

No, no.

Balister: 01:07:52

Art Lichtenburger.

Locke: 01:07:52

Art Lichtenburg was there and then Eric Breyerton was there. So he's another person that was here that went to Virginia Diodes I guess.

Balister: 01:08:03

Yeah, Virginia Diodes is sort of a commercial outgrowth.

Kellermann: 01:08:06

No, but what's his name started?

Balister: 01:08:09

Tom Crowe.

Kellermann: 01:08:10

No.

Balister: 01:08:11

Mattauch.

Kellermann: 01:08:12

Mattauch. Yeah, Mattauch.

Balister: 01:08:13

Yeah, I'm not sure how involved Mattauch was at that stage because Mattauch was off at VCU and then became in charge of the engineering department.

Kellermann: 01:08:22

Okay. But wasn't he our main supplier?

Balister: 01:08:25

Oh, yeah. Yeah, at UVA. Yeah.

Kellermann: 01:08:27

Yeah. How do you spell that?

Bouton: 01:08:30

M-A-T-T-A-U-C-H.

Kellermann: 01:08:32

M-A-T-T-A-C--

Bouton: 01:08:35

A-U-C-H. I think that's right.

Balister: 01:08:43

He's still around I think. I sent him an email not too long ago but he didn't respond.

Kellermann: 01:08:52

He fell off a ladder or something once.

Balister: 01:08:54

Oh, yeah, broke his leg.

Kellermann: 01:08:56

Is that all?

Balister: 01:08:56

He got his son or wife to come running out with a camera to take a photograph of his broken leg. I think there were bits of bone sticking out. And they had to do a fairly construction with the orthopedic surgeon, and the orthopedic surgeon wrote a paper about this. And I think Bob Mattauch's name might have got mentioned as the patient in the paper but it didn't get reviewed very well. It never got published.

Kellermann: 01:09:29

So what was the advantage of SIS devices?

Balister: 01:09:39

Well, very low noise and almost quantum limited. There are newer devices now being worked on by the [inaudible] guy. What's his name?

Locke: 01:09:52

Omid Noroozian.

Balister: 01:09:53

Omid Noroozian.

Locke: 01:09:54

But that's still sort of in the research phase. Currently, anything above 50 gigahertz, the lowest noise-- you can't get amplifiers that are lower noise than SIS mixers. So  Omid is working on this-- it's kind of like an amplifier, and it's kind of like a SIS mixer. But if it works, it would replace, or be an option to replace, the SIS mixer as the first element in the receivers. So, it could possibly have ALMA implications but--

Balister: 01:10:22

The thing of it is there have been papers about this for many years. [inaudible] any practical examples.

Locke: 01:10:29

Yeah. He's trying to make it so that it's-- because usually these devices work at sub-Kelvins. So we've got this huge dewar in the basement. It's beautiful. It's like a chandelier. It goes all the way down to like a hundred milli-Kelvin. So he's trying to use those devices at regular [inaudible] Kelvin devices.

Balister: 01:10:45

It's basically a super conducting parametric amplifier. The word, "parametric amplifier," makes me think about all the problems [laughter]. I need to be convinced. He seems to be like a bit of a theoretician.

Locke: 01:11:07

He is. He's also got sort of NASA-- he's a NASA Goddard Fellow. So some of his time is over there too.

Kellermann: 01:11:14

So the SIS devices, they all use the high frequencies, or?

Balister: 01:11:21

Yeah. I mean, all the higher frequencies in ALMA are SIS [inaudible].

Kellermann: 01:11:26

The VLA is still HEMTs.

Balister: 01:11:30

I think maybe the Chinese or the Japanese, aren't they making SIS devices for some of the bands?

Locke: 01:11:37

They might be. I don't know how they compare.

Balister: 01:11:42

Again, Tony’s the guy, or Pan.

Kellermann: 01:11:45

Okay. So aside from losing Sandy, what were the other things that we've done wrong, with hindsight?

Balister: 01:11:53

Well, I said selling amplifiers got me in trouble, mainly from people in Tucson. But we've managed to get most of the money to pour it back into the lab. It wasn't [crosstalk].

Kellermann: 01:12:09

Sorry. What was the criticism of Tucson?

Balister: 01:12:12

Well, they figured that we were working on stuff for other people to make money for the lab, we weren't doing stuff for them and this sort of thing. And I think Marian was a little [inaudible] originally. But I think in the way, in the end, it enhanced his reputation. So I don't know [inaudible] these days.

Kellermann: 01:12:33

He certainly took a hands-off attitude with building anything for the Russians, which we got heavily involved in.

Locke: 01:12:44

That might be his history. Maybe, I don't know?

Kellermann: 01:12:47

Oh, yeah. Definitely, definitely. Yeah.

Balister: 01:12:49

Well, he also picked on me every lunchtime because I'm British.

Bouton: 01:12:53

Why?

Balister: 01:12:53

Well, Stalin and Churchill, they got together and basically let the Russians move into Poland in the Second World War. And I said, Marian, I was six at the time and I don't know anything about it [laughter], and you keep on bringing it up.

Kellermann: 01:13:09

Yeah. But the Brits were secondary to the Russians. So you mentioned the loss of connectivity.

Balister: 01:13:29

It's that thing I gave you last time. I didn't add to it. I bought some extra copies. But I deliberately didn't email it to you because I didn't want it showing up on the front page of the New York Times.

Kellermann: 01:13:40

You didn't say anything bad here about anybody. No. But you mentioned the loss of connectivity between the electronics and the--

Balister: 01:13:48

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think people would agree. Some would, anyway. It was different. I mean, there is one thing. I think Mort Roberts, when he was director, he seemed to be more friendly. Not that the other directors were unfriendly, but Rick Fisher got permission to start a small group of engineers, and it had a name, and I can't remember what the name was, and you have to talk to Rick Fisher about this. And--

Kellermann: 01:14:20

Basic research?

Balister: 01:14:21

Something like that. Yeah. And he was given permission to hire two or three or four people, and he hired three. Maybe Rich Lacasse.  I forget who else, but--

Kellermann: 01:14:35

No, no, no. No.

Balister: 01:14:38

I forget who else. [crosstalk]--

Kellermann: 01:14:39

No. Rich was in Green Bank.

Balister: 01:14:43

Yeah. Well, so was Rick then.

Kellermann: 01:14:46

Oh, he may have hired him. Yeah.

Balister: 01:14:50

Because Sri was in Green Bank originally, until he moved to Charlottesville. Sandy was a bit anti that because he had visions of a competing group within the organization. And I think they were good hires. They're still here and doing good work.

Kellermann: 01:15:12

This was when Rick was head of Green Bank Electronics?

Balister: 01:15:15

It might've been.

Kellermann: 01:15:17

He was even Site Director for a while.

Balister: 01:15:19

Yeah. I think he was head of Green Bank Electronics when I when to Australia. Because I came back and he was very upset. He kept on having run-ins with Bill Howard, and I'm not sure whether it was about scheduling or what. But then Rich Lacasse took over at that stage, and then this guy Ford, who I don't know very well at all. But he had the job for 10, 15 years. He's been the longest guy in that position. But I don't know him very well at all because he's started as I retired.

Kellermann: 01:15:58

Well, he's not there anymore.

Balister: 01:16:00

No, he's still there I think. Is he still there?

Locke: 01:16:03

John Ford [crosstalk]?

Bouton: 01:16:04

Are you talking about John Ford? Because John Ford was after Roger Norrod. So was there a Ford person before Roger?

Balister: 01:16:11

No. He would be after Roger.

Bouton: 01:16:15

Oh. John Ford's really [inaudible].

Balister: 01:16:19

Wasn't he a software guy originally?

Locke: 01:16:20

Yeah. He was a software engineer. And then when Roger left, he just kind of moved into the position. But I had no idea that maybe he was-- I think he was at--

Balister: 01:16:28

I think he's still there.

Bouton: 01:16:30

I think he is, too.

Balister: 01:16:31

Oh. You might want to look into that.

Kellermann: 01:16:34

It's not important. We're not--

Balister: 01:16:37

It could be important in 10 years time.

Kellermann: 01:16:39

No, I mean, we're--

Balister: 01:16:43

You're restricting your history?

Kellermann: 01:16:45

That's what I was about to say, but it's not completely true [laughter] because we had to take some things up to the present, like ALMA. But the concentration's really on the-- we really stop with the GBT. But the millimeter stuff, just to put a close on it, talks about the-- there's a few pages in the millimeter array in ALMA. But Paul and Bob Dickman are writing a whole book about that.

Balister: 01:17:20

I see. Is there a chapter on the ALMA project?

Kellermann: 01:17:25

There's a chapter on millimeter astronomy. The 36-foot starts with Frank Low and Frank Drake. By the way, Frank Low is the one that sold stuff to the dark side.

Balister: 01:17:40

It was what?

Kellermann: 01:17:41

Frank Low sold his bolometers to the people from the dark side. I mean, he told me these guys would come in with cash, $10,000, and walk out with a bolometer and there were no records, or.

Balister: 01:17:56

I see. Oh, okay. Now, thank goodness I wasn't involved. Did Ted Riffe know about that?

Kellermann: 01:18:03

Oh, no, he wasn't working for us then. This is after he went to University of Arizona.

Balister: 01:18:07

Oh, okay, okay. We're off the book. Just [inaudible]. But I would have thought in a section about--

Kellermann: 01:18:18

No, so listen, there's longer stuff about it. So I was asking you about Tucson because I was going through their stuff and they were complaining about stuff coming from the CDL and at the last minute and not working.

Balister: 01:18:33

Yeah. I think a lot of it was personality stuff.

Kellermann: 01:18:34

Yeah, and the [inaudible].

Balister: 01:18:36

And also if something broke then you had astronomers over you, and they tend to--

Kellermann: 01:18:42

But no, we talked about the 36 Foot and 25 Meter-- sorry, the conversion to the 12 Meter, the 25 Meter which didn't fly, and then the reactions to the 25 Meter without being funded was really the beginning of the Millimeter Array. Which enormous amount of-- I mean, there's boxes and boxes full of stuff here about the Millimeter Array. Well, first no, first about the 25 Meter. It's amazing the amount of work that goes into these things that never get funded.

Balister: 01:19:18

That was Mark Gordon, wasn't it?

Locke: 01:19:19

Mm-hmm.

Kellermann: 01:19:19

Yeah. And then the Millimeter Array which morphed into ALMA.

Balister: 01:19:27

Yeah, I remember Bob Brown asked me to do an estimate of the development costs for a millimeter array, and I did that back sort of in an afternoon [inaudible].

Kellermann: 01:19:39

It shows it [laughter].

Balister: 01:19:41

Well, yeah, I mean it was done very quickly. And he also told me, basically he hinted, it shouldn't be over about 20 million.

Kellermann: 01:19:49

Yeah. Well, he got criticized for unrealistic cost estimates.

Balister: 01:19:53

Oh, he did?

Kellermann: 01:19:54

Yeah. No, it was, not--

Balister: 01:19:55

And I sort of probably realized that, but.

Kellermann: 01:19:58

No, no. Bob then presented this higher up the line and that's where it got criticized.

Balister: 01:20:06

Oh, okay. And Bob might have edited what I wrote because anything I wrote and gave to Bob he usually rewrote.

Kellermann: 01:20:13

No, it wasn't a matter of what was said, it was the fact that it was too low.

Balister: 01:20:17

Oh, okay. Well, I think you guys up the chain had an idea how much that figure should be if you didn't want to frighten anybody.

Kellermann: 01:20:31

Well, I think that's--

Balister: 01:20:32

And also [inaudible].

Kellermann: 01:20:35

Well, there were--

Balister: 01:20:36

I mean, I went around and talked to Tony and all these people about [inaudible], and the same thing for the MAP project. I had to do that in an afternoon because they were going to submit the proposal for one of these-- what was it-- Explorer things. And I think probably that was underestimated by a factor of two. I don't know what the final costs were, but I'm sure they were a lot more than the original. That's probably pretty common in science projects. [laughter]

Kellermann: 01:21:12

Especially in NASA. The SKA is the worst case.

Balister: 01:21:16

Well, also I was told that-- I was asking about all the testing, cryogenic testing, vibration testing, all that sort of thing. And they said, "No, just RadioShack specifications," which apparently is what they use for an earlier background satellite.

Kellermann: 01:21:41

Anything you want to say about the VLA?

Balister: 01:21:44

Yeah. I mean, that was sort of internally run by NRAO, wasn't it? There were no outside people, which I suspect is a good thing. That's probably an observation anybody'd make.

Kellermann: 01:22:05

We were the prime contractor. Yeah. There was no overall contractor. But--

Balister: 01:22:11

He'd come and change the [inaudible] on that project. I suppose we needed some of the expertise from these other companies. I got the impression Dave Heeschen didn’t like international projects.

Kellermann: 01:22:31

Well, they didn't have much choice on it. But all of the VLA stuff was built here. All the front ends and--

Balister: 01:22:41

Yeah. Most of it on Ivy Road, and [inaudible]. And some of the stuff was upgraded and worked on in Socorro. And a lot of the waveguide, the circular waveguide along the baseline, John Archer was working on that, and I got the feeling he might've worked on a lot of that in Socorro. But I forget the details.

Kellermann: 01:23:18

Well, it would've had to. That's where the--

Balister: 01:23:20

Well, that's where the test piece--

Kellermann: 01:23:20

--test piece was sent. Yeah.

Balister: 01:23:22

--was buried and that sort of thing. I suppose they just threaded fiber through the [inaudible].

Kellermann: 01:23:27

Well, that was the plan, but I only found out recently--

Balister: 01:23:32

That they just buried it?

Kellermann: 01:23:33

Yeah. Because I had assumed that that's what happened, but I guess it was Rick Perley or something that told me that's not the case.

Balister: 01:23:42

That's what Verizon does around [inaudible]. [laughter]

Kellermann: 01:23:46

What?

Balister: 01:23:46

[inaudible].

Kellermann: 01:23:47

Oh, yeah. But they don't have the stability requirements that we do. [laughter] Anything else you can think of?

Balister: 01:24:05

No. I think it's important that you talk to quite a lot of people to get a much more general idea of things. Okay?

Kellermann: 01:24:17

What specifically should we be asking Sandy?

Balister: 01:24:22

Well, I think I would ask some of the history. As a matter of curiosity. You might find out why he ended up at Caltech. I mean, I think I know, but I never really had any strong discussions with him on what could NRAO have done to keep him around. That would be my question.

Kellermann: 01:24:41

But there's a big gap between when he left and when he went to Caltech.

Balister: 01:24:45

Well, yes. Yeah. Yeah. I don't really know. Because I think he was a loss. But fortunately, we’re still connected with him anyway.

Kellermann: 01:25:07

Well, that's right. That's right. Well, we do now once he went to Caltech--

Balister: 01:25:13

Well, yeah, when--

Kellermann: 01:25:14

But I have a feeling that when he was at--

Balister: 01:25:16

When he when to Columbia, [inaudible] I did visit him once.

Kellermann: 01:25:19

Well, yeah. Personally. But--

Balister: 01:25:21

And he had to keep track of the time that I was talking to him, so he knew what to charge it to.

Kellermann: 01:25:26

Yeah. But even when he was at UMass, I don't recall much--

Balister: 01:25:31

I never visited him at UMass.

Kellermann: 01:25:33

But since he went to Caltech, he's been coming to some of our meetings and everything. But that wasn't--

Balister: 01:25:42

I had been to Caltech, but I don't think I was there when Sandy was there.

Kellermann: 01:25:47

But there was a 10- or 15-year gap where we didn't have much intellectual contact with him, I think.

Balister: 01:25:56

I think Craig Moore had contact with him, and Al [inaudible]. He went to work at [inaudible], I think, with a vastly increased salary.

Kellermann: 01:26:07

Yeah. I saw him because he-- daughter, what was her name? Sarah's age. They were friends. And once when Sarah was working in Washington, Al brought Suzie with him.

Balister: 01:26:31

I'm not sure.

Kellermann: 01:26:32

He brought her down, so I met him. Okay. Thank you.

Balister: 01:26:37

Thank you. So you're going to a lunch with Bob Brown awardee?

Kellermann: 01:26:43

No.