Interview with Alfred C. Beck, 10 February 1965
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Please bear in mind that: 1) This material is a transcript of the spoken word rather than a literary product; 2) An interview must be read with the awareness that different people's memories about an event will often differ, and that memories can change with time for many reasons including subsequent experiences, interactions with others, and one's feelings about an event.
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Transcription by TranscribeMe in April 2019, reviewed and corrected by Kenneth I. Kellermann and Ellen N. Bouton.
Kestenbaum
[This is Ray Kestenbaum] of the public relations department speaking presently at Crawford Hill, New Jersey, February 10th, 1965. This is the beginning of a series of interviews which is attempting to explain some of the background of Karl Janksy's work of the origins of radio astronomy and of extraterrestrial radio sources. With me today is Mr. Al C. Beck at Crawford Hill, who knew Mr. Janksy and worked with him in the early days of radio astronomy. Mr. Beck, were you connected with the studies of the shortwave static research at the time of Jansky's work? And if you were, tell me of the circumstances of your professional relation with Janksy at that time.
Beck
Janksy. Karl Jansky and I both reported for work to the Cliffwood Laboratory of Bell Telephone Laboratories. In the summer of 1928. I was assigned to work with antennas, a group headed by E. Bruce, and L.R. Lowry also worked in this group. One of my assignments was to construct measuring equipment, including recorders, which we call field strength recorders, to record signals on the British Transatlantic Stations of the telephone company and to study these signals as they were received on different antennas, and to make recordings of their strength. Karl Jansky was assigned at the same time to build similar equipment, similar recorders, but his interest was in recording sources of static and noise, which might interfere with these signals since the signal noise ratio is the important thing. Previous to this time, Friis had done a considerable amount of static recording on long waves with rotating loop structures and with patterns obtained with loops and wire antennas. The equipment for this was in existence. Karl Jansky took over this equipment and operated it on long waves and proceeded to build what we called shortwave measuring equipment. For this, he drew on all of the facilities and knowledge that was available in the whole area of radio research at the time. Accurate measuring sets with the double detection type as we called them or superheterodyne type were available and being used at the time, had been developed by Friis, Bruce, and others. Jansky was partly in on this.
Beck
When we came, he built such a measuring set with a variable attenuator and an immediate frequency, and when used with the recorder, this attenuator was built into the recorder. I built the same kind of equipment to record signals. We worked closely together. In many cases, each of us would make two parts and give the other one. I think I built the attenuator in his. I know he built the galvanometer assembly in mine, because he built a pair of them, and so we were working closely together on the same kind of equipment but for different purposes. Janksy also designed a zigzag antenna on wheels on a track which was built from the work of Bruce, known as Bruce Array. And Friis, who was head of all this, coordinated this work, worked closely with all of us at the time. It was a very close-knit group. We were very well aware of the other's work during this whole period.
Kestenbaum
Can I interrupt you here and ask you, were you personal friends with Janksy or what was your personal relationship?
Beck
We were very good personal friends. I have always liked and admired Jansky in spite of the fact that he even then had some medical problems and was somewhat a temporary employee and for a while because of this. We were close friends. We played various games together, softball, table tennis. And we were once called Monmouth County champions of table tennis.
Kestenbaum
And you visited his home.
Beck
I've been in his home and so forth. And he had a table for table tennis in his basement. In fact, we played some other teams around Monmouth County occasionally in his basement, and we were closely associated both personally and in our work. And it happened Karl Janksy and I both came with the same background. We had bachelor's degrees and had been teaching for a year during which we had done some graduate work. We somewhat sometimes kidded each other because he called himself a physicist, and I was, of course, an engineer, and this was sometimes good for a little fun.
Kestenbaum
Coming back to Karl Janksy's profession. In his work here at Bell Labs when he was on this static radio research, what was he trying to accomplish?
Beck
Well, the point was that Friis had achieved considerable success in finding the direction from which thunderstorms came at long waves since most of the static there were due to thunderstorms. And beam antennas, which aim toward England in this country, in general aim away from most of the thunderstorm tracks, and this had led to part of the background for building a very light beam antenna as such, a long wire antenna, sometimes called a Beverage Antenna, up in northern Maine to get so that the direction of the interference was in the back of this antenna, and therefore, they could get a better signal-to-noise ratio. This was existing information. Much of the work had been done on all of this, Friis had been instrumental in a great deal of directional studies of static on long waves.
Beck
He therefore assigned Jansky to investigate sources of static and noise on short waves where we could get much better beam antennas and determine what direction static came from to help the signal-noise ratio on the Transatlantic Telephone System, which was very important to the old Bell System transatlantic traffic.
Kestenbaum
Did Janksy actually accomplish this work and did he document it?
Beck
Yes. I would think so in some of his publications. That was his main assignment, his main job, and a main interest.
Kestenbaum
Well, what was approximately the time in which he discovered that some of the signals that he was getting were not from terrestrial sources? When did that occur?
Beck
Well, this, of course, was a long slow process, and this sort of grew in his mind and in all of the minds. There were some background things that tended to point to it. He built this antenna which rotated once every 20 minutes, and he recorded the noise output by tuning to a channel where there were as far as possible no interfering radio signals. He had been doing this for some time and had correlated this with the existing weather data on the location of thunderstorms. And at these frequencies, thunderstorms were less troublesome and had to be closer to bother. And there were frequent times when one heard other noises. Some of these were various man-made interferences, some of them were unknown, and it was not possible or simple to separate these. It was often you could tell thunderstorms static because of the discrete crashes are associated with a lightning flash, but there were other sounds in there very definitely, unknown things of a number of types certainly. And Janksy started a very thorough and careful study of the sources and what they were doing.
Kestenbaum
When did he first discover this? What year was this? Was this 1928, 29?
Beck
No. This is carefully documented as to date in the early history of radio astronomy, and his progress report and the dates are given there. And rather than try to remember them - my memory is it's near '31. He came in '28, but these dates are given, and it's in that.
Kestenbaum
It happened over a period of time that he kept on receiving these signals, and he became more and more aware that the source for this noise was not terrestrial.
Beck
Yes, although that was a long history that it was associated with a lot of other people. One little clue to that that we realized later, although I don't know that we realized at the time, was I was connected closely with - and one of the reasons that I perhaps was very much interested at the time, accompanied by the fact that Karl Janksy's office was directly across from mine and we discussed this at great length over a long period, often.
Kestenbaum
Does this mean that he was very interested in this discovery and would continue [this research?]?
Beck
Oh yes. Later on. I don't know whether it meant that he'd continue it. My opinion is that he didn't want to continue. We'll come to that later.
Kestenbaum
Well, actually that's the point [inaudible].
Beck
That's the point, and we'll come to it later
Kestenbaum
All right. Well, let me ask you this. The surrounding temperament in the laboratories at this time - let's assume for a moment that Janksy was interested in continuing this work. We haven't established this yet.
Beck
I don't believe he was personally.
Kestenbaum
You don't. Well, there was a temperament at the laboratory at this time such that it would have been of interest for him to continue this work.
Beck
Probably not.
Kestenbaum
What is the reason for this?
Beck
Well, there didn't seem to be - later on, looking at this, there didn't seem to be any immediate Bell System application for such information. And after all, we were an applied research and somebody was paying our salaries from the telephone income, and we had to stick somewhat to our knitting, although we had unusual freedom to do pure research in many ways. As, of course, it's always been the case in the Bell Labs, and we were perhaps even more so than many of the other places. And I think had there been any interest in it, it might have been done. It's my personal opinion that Karl didn't want to. Now, this is a question-- this is very much of a moot question. But Karl had after all this work and very cleverly associated with a fixed direction in space and published an article, and it was apparently of extraterrestrial origin. He felt he had accomplished something of considerable importance and was very proud of it. He then to my knowledge in my opinion felt that he had done what was necessary from his point of view. If they wanted further information on this line-- and I'm not sure he was convinced that there was much information to be had at the time to be honest with you from personal recollection, talking with him. He went on with other things I think largely at his own choice.
Kestenbaum
Well, getting back now to people at the laboratories here. I understand that in the early thirties, this was printed on the first page of New York Times, and furthermore, Janksy was given a radio interview WJZ. Do you recall at that time with the attitude of the management here was towards that publicity?
Beck
Yes. At least on our part, and on Friis's part, we were very happy about it. And we thought it was a very considerable achievement, that it was a very important piece of information scientifically, and he had full support from all concerned so far as I know.
Kestenbaum
Does that mean management would have been willing to continue this sort of work and so was given this publicity? And at least writers and news commentators thought it was important at that time that management shared this opinion.
Beck
I think they did to the extent that we all felt, including Karl Janksy, that this was it. He had found this, but to go on with it at that time probably was questionable whether you would learn much more than, "Here was this noise." We did not at that time have any notion of the present state of radio astronomy. Of course, didn't know any of this; it wasn't known for years later. And at the time, there was a strong feeling on the part of most of us that this was it, and one goes on from there.
Kestenbaum
Well, now let's get really to the point. Did Jansky want to go on with his work?
Beck
Well, it's my memory that he didn't particularly.
Kestenbaum
What is the reason for this?
Beck
He felt that his work with the Bell Laboratories was for the purposes of developing communication for the Bell System, and that this at the moment was a side issue that did not contribute directly to the communication.
Kestenbaum
Actually, how does one explain-- how does one explain the fact that he worked for so many years in pointing his antenna towards his direction, which was not local noise or thunderstorms, and coming up with the discovery that this was not a terrestrial type of noise? And he spent such a great deal of time doing this. How does one explain the fact that he did, and yet he wasn't too interested in it? He didn't want to pursue this at this time.
Beck
Actually, this never was in his work during all those years, his major job. This was a side issue and a fallout if you wish. And in reading his notebooks, which I have done very carefully and thoroughly over these years, there is almost no reference to it whatsoever. It was a minor part of his work this entire time. He never deliberately pointed an antenna in these directions or attempted to. He had an antenna which scanned 360 degrees. He traced this noise on it, showed with elementary astronomy principles that it came from a fixed direction in space located in that direction, and published this article on it, and then went on as he had been with all the other work he had been doing it. His notebook shows a great deal more effort along other lines all during this period from the time of 1928 on and not much along this line.
Kestenbaum
Do you suspect that the reason he wasn't interested in pursuing this was the fact that he was just satisfied in knowing that this noise came from this-and-this direction and wasn't terrestrial and he wanted to get on with the job of static? In other words -
Beck
That's a whole job of other things. He worked with many other things. Actually, his notebook shows that over the years following this that occasionally as he was working with arrays of [inaudible] antennas and other antennas, every once in a while, he casually turned to a vacant frequency and steered the antenna array to check that this noise was still coming from this direction and was about the same. And he recorded frequently over the years after that that the cosmic static as such still is the same as it used to be.
Kestenbaum
In your recollection -
Beck
To a certain extent, he did go on.
Kestenbaum
Well, in your recollection then, did he make any formal approach with the management here to continue this work?
Beck
I am convinced that he did not.
Kestenbaum
He did not.
Beck
In talking with him, I mean very close to him, I never heard of any such a thing. I have talked with Friis about it. Friis has no recollection of any such thing. I never heard anything about it in any way, shape, or manner closely associated with it. And actually after this, I was very closely associated in other ways. When he finished the work with this rotating array, I took over the rotating array structure, took down the Bruce Antenna, and mounted an antenna on my own on and then used it for several years myself.
Kestenbaum
What year was this now?
Beck
I would have to check the notebooks. It was three or four years after his work with discovering this. But I built a different antenna on the same rotating structure, and I used it for several years for different antennas and antenna testing personally.
Kestenbaum
When was he taken off this static research job?
Beck
I don't think he was ever taken off it. As I say, for years following, he continued every once in a while to check that it was there. He went on to other work. One of the other jobs that he did after that was one that, because I had another project, took over one that I had been working, on a home antenna so-called, on an array antenna that I had been working with. He wrote a memo on it as he took it over, and I think that he was never taken off this kind of work as such. He felt that he had finished it and of his own free will that the other work, which had been very strong, which he was doing during the whole time, which his notebook showed. No discontinuities, no changes in his effort. Simply taking on other jobs and going right on with the same thing he had done since he came with the company in 1928. His interest in circuits and in integrating for this kind of noise measurement and in measuring sets was very strong. He had always worked with it; he continued to do so. I don't believe that he was directed to change.
Kestenbaum
Would you say that the impetus for him to stop working in radio astronomy came from him, or his boss, or from both of them?
Beck
I don't know. I feel that he was a party to it definitely.
Kestenbaum
But would you say that his boss or higher-ups at any time had told him to discontinue this work?
Beck
I don't believe so. Not to my knowledge certainly.
Kestenbaum
Well, I'd like to know, Mr. Beck. I'd like to know something about Mr. Jansky himself. You mentioned you were close friends with him. Let's talk about his professional ambitions first. Do you recall? I mean what did he want to accomplish? He was a young man between - what? - I guess between the ages of 22 and 40 throughout the spans you knew him. Over a period of time as you talked with him - it's hard to say actually what a man's goal in life - what he wants to do. It changes over a period of time. But professionally as an engineer, what did he want to accomplish? Particularly from the age of 28 onward, what were his ambitions?
Beck
Well, I might interject just one other thing in this previous discussion that these were after all Depression days, in which money was exceedingly hard to come by, and this might have colored some of the whole feeling because we weren't even working full-time during the Depression. This was a very difficult time financially, of course, for the Bell System and for all of us personally. And it might have been colored a little by this, but I still feel that it was Jansky's own decision partly this way. Now, as to Jansky's personal ambitions and so on, yes, we discussed that in detail. And I think that brings in one other point that perhaps should be tied fairly closely to this and that is that John Pfieffer set out to write a book on radio astronomy and to get this history and so forth. The Changing Universe. And this is one of the important themes in this whole background. And when John Pfieffer first came to Holmdel in preparing this, he told us that he wanted information, of course. He spent a day with us. I gave him pictures and a great deal of information in this book and so did the others here at Holmdel. We had a long session in Friis's office, but John Pfieffer made a statement something to the effect that, "You can't write a good book and have a good player movie unless there is some sort of a conflict in it." And he felt that the conflict that he wanted to write up in his book at that time in my memory of what he said was that here Jansky had done an excellent job, a very outstanding job. He had shown that there was radio signals, radio energy arriving at his antenna from outside the Earth. And this was something that, as we know now, is of tremendous importance, and that therefore he published this. He had accomplished his aim in doing this and that no one in science picked this up or in effect as I remember him saying to us, the scientist says, "Oh, you're just a radio. Go run along with your radio today. That's not astronomy."
Beck
And it was years before astronomers picked this up, or had anything to do with it, and he thought that would make a very interesting thing for his book. However, apparently when he talked to the scientists, he changed his opinion and got talked out of this or something - I don't know what - because it didn't turn out to be the conflict in the book. However, the conflict in the book came to be to a certain extent at least and has been considered to be the fact that Jansky did not continue his work. And that is why this became this. Pfieffer promised us that he would show us this text before he published it. He did not keep that promise, and none of us ever saw this and were horrified when it did come out this way.
Kestenbaum
Is Pfieffer a freelance writer?
Beck
Freelance writer working for - now Jansky was only 28 years old in 1933, according to Pfieffer's book. And there was a great deal more research to be done. I don't think yet he thought there was a great deal more to be done at that date personally.
Kestenbaum
In radio astronomy?
Beck
In radio astronomy. He had a lot more research to be done, but for purposes of radio communication and the telephone company, which was his interest, and his interest always was strong in circuits and complements and measuring methods. He was an expert on measurements. That had made this possible. And he said, "In fact, he was to spend very little time doing research in the field he had created. Four years later, he made a few observations, tuning in on more Milky Way static and noting that the longer the radio waves received, the stronger the signals were."
Kestenbaum
From the book now?
Beck
I'm reading from the book.
Kestenbaum
Yes.
Beck
Now, a lot of these things, he did much more than four years later. In his notebook, there are many more things than Pfieffer knew about when he wrote this. This is interjected. Now this is a mixture of book and interjection, but it's important also. "And the remarkable thing is that he accomplished so much in so brief a period." That we agree with. "He had spent only about a year doing intensive work on static from the stars, and that was on a half-time basis." Actually spent more than a year, but it never was as much as a half-time basis. I don't agree with a lot of his analysis. And then he says, "Rarely has a pioneer stopped at the very point where it's beginning to get exciting." Well, that's quite the contrary. It was not getting exciting. It was solved, finished, and done in his mind in my opinion.
Kestenbaum
I might interject that the Reader's Digest made the same statement. They said his bosses told him to stop, and this is one of the sources of the problems here. Do you consider this a source of misinformation?
Beck
Yes, I consider that as misinformation personally.
Kestenbaum
Where did they get this from?
Beck
I don't know, although I suspect I know. And we'll come to just a little of this here.
Kestenbaum
Okay.
Beck
I don't know, and then again, this is perhaps very confidential as far as [inaudible] is concerned. The point is that this information has come largely to my knowledge from his brother Cyril Jansky, Jansky and Bailey, who for some reason seems to have a great deal of bad feeling toward the Bell Laboratories and has made some statements and done some things that we feel are completely incorrect. And we'll get to some of them here. We think that that is the source. I don't know.
Kestenbaum
Incidentally, that would explain it.
Beck
And just why, I don't know. Incidentally, I understand his brother -
Kestenbaum
But no one in the Bell Laboratories would make a statement -
Beck
No. I'm sure it has come from him. He has published some things of this nature, which [inaudible] wrote him and he didn't even answer Friis. Friis wrote him a letter.
Kestenbaum
Do you know the name of these publications of these articles?
Kestenbaum
Yes. He wrote an article in which some of this is stated - I'm going to look this up in more detail - in the radio astronomy issue of the Proceedings of the Institute of Radio Engineers, and that is January 1958.
Kestenbaum
Was Cyril an engineer himself?
Beck
Oh yes. His brother and his father was an engineer and a professor at the University of Wisconsin and some other schools.
Kestenbaum
His brother is still alive at the moment.
Beck
His brother is still alive, a there's firm named Jansky and Bailey, a very prominent concern in Washington and the radio field was once a member of the Federal Communications Commission.
Kestenbaum
Is that right?
Beck
And is a very well known person in all of this, of course, and it's had a good deal to do with it. Well, John Pfieffer said, "I visited the Holmdel Laboratory primarily to find out why." I spent the entire day with him and gave him most of the material when he was here. I never heard him even question why Jansky stopped. He hadn't thought of that at that time in my opinion. So I think this is not a very good statement in his book, again, my personal opinion. "According to one explanation, he was simply not interested in the stars as an engineer, and he always called himself a physicist." Just another [inaudible]. "He expected to stay with a problem as long as it proved of practical importance no longer. He had detected in a new type of static, discovered where it came from, and considered it merely one of many of that had to be allowed for in designing more efficient radio telephones." And there's some reality to this. Then he threw some quotes in here, this statement, which I think is interesting. "When the excitement died down, we thought things over," comments a radio engineer who worked with Janksy for many years.
Kestenbaum
Who was this radio engineer?
Beck
I don't know who this radio engineer is. I was the one who said the main things to him at the time, but we all said things to him of this nature when he was here. This could be any one of us here at Holmdel in my opinion. "We decided there was no reason to go further. The noise figure for space had been established. We knew how much static to expect. We were working for a public utility and our purpose is to improve telephone services. We decided that the research should be done somewhere else, at universities or in government laboratories. Of course, if Karl had wanted to, he could have kept up his work. But I think he agreed with the decision. He didn't regret it." And this quote is essentially my personal opinion, and it was given to him when he was here, I think. Although his major purpose of it was just to learn the whole thing in our memory. Not this no [inaudible] stop.
Kestenbaum
Mr. Beck, let me ask you this. Did you consider Jansky a good engineer?
Beck
Excellent. I had great respect for him technically.
Kestenbaum
Was he a dedicated man?
Beck
A very dedicated man. I mean -
Kestenbaum
Would he be the sort of person who'd stay after 5:00?
Beck
Oh yes. And many times he did.
Kestenbaum
Would he would you consider him a person of scientific curiosity?
Beck
Yes. Very great scientific curiosity. A man we all liked, both for all of his personal attributes and because of his scientific ability.
Kestenbaum
Wouldn't that sort of person tend to pursue a study in which he thought no one ever discovered before?
Beck
Well, I'm not sure he felt that there was any more to learn. He established that there was, and that was it. And he didn't know there was anymore. It was years later before it was discovered there was anything more. I think a great many other scientists in this country thought the same way and why nothing was done on it outside the labs.
Kestenbaum
He had discovered radio sources coming from the direction of Sagittarius and center of the Milky Way. Did he also come up with the radio source from the Cygnus A?
Beck
No, he did not know there was anything but this one. Never had any indication of anything else.
Kestenbaum
That's the full extent of his discovery of radio sources?
Beck
Radio sources, yes, that here was here were radio signals coming from fixed directions in space. He never suspected any others. And I don't think anyone did until Grote Reber found them years later, which is an interesting story in and of itself in which Grote Reber had written in that same radio astronomy issue with great deal of interest. I spent a day with Grote Reber a few years ago, great entertainment, and discussed this with him, and it was Grote Reber who wrote to Southworth suggesting that a copy of Janksy's antenna be put at Green Bank, a replica. And so Grote Reber was the source of Bell Laboratories supplying this antenna to the National Radio Astronomy Observatory in Green Bank, West Virginia.
Kestenbaum
Did Karl Jansky after 1933-- did he ever consult on the subject of radio astronomy or pursue this work or in his own time?
Beck
Not to my knowledge. Although I know he did talk with Grote Reber. Grote Reber told me so, about some things later on when Grote Reber contacted him. Grote Reber who interested in DX work decided to look into this after reading Jansky's publication and built his famous parabolic telescope in his own backyard in Wheaton. And that is now at Green Bank across from Jansky's antenna, and I've spent a day at Green Bank with Grote Reber and on the background of all of this, and he told me he had talked with Jansky about it. He got what information he could when he went into it.
Kestenbaum
But aside from this contact, Jansky essentially dropped radio astronomy.
Beck
Except for occasionally, he had - over various times later, there are entries in a notebook that he wanted to be the same as it was when he first discovered, which would support the idea that this was it. When was the next radio source found?
Kestenbaum
By Grote Reber.
Beck
By Grote Reber. Yes. And this is detailed in his article and the very interesting way in his radio astronomy issue.
Kestenbaum
About what year was this?
Beck
Oh, I don't remember exactly, and I'm guessing, but I would say '37 or '38.
Kestenbaum
I see.
Beck
I have narrowed up toward '40.
Kestenbaum
Did this have any effect on Jansky wanting to continue working radio astronomy?
Beck
Not to my knowledge.
Kestenbaum
Not to your knowledge.
Beck
I mean I'm generally -
Kestenbaum
I mean, here, Jansky, according to your opinion, was of the idea that the radio sources come only - well, he only discovered one source of radio noise.
Beck
One source, mm-hmm.
Kestenbaum
And it wasn't aware that the heavens were full of this.
Beck
Not at all.
Kestenbaum
And then Grote Reber came along several years later.
Beck
He had discovered some other sources.
Kestenbaum
Discovered some of the sources and discussed it with Jansky.
Beck
Yes.
Kestenbaum
But this still didn't entice Jansky to continue it.
Beck
I never heard that it did. If it did, I heard nothing about it.
Kestenbaum
Let me ask you this question, Mr. Beck, what was Jansky's feelings towards Bell Laboratories or both at the beginning when you first knew him and later on before his death?
Beck
As far as I know, he always had a pretty good opinion of the Laboratories. I'm not sure about his brother Cyril's feelings because Cryil had worked for the Laboratory somewhat too, I believe.
Kestenbaum
Oh, did he?
Beck
Yes.
Kestenbaum
What year was this now?
Beck
Early summers. And this would be before '28, I think. I don't know. This, I have known a notion about. But I heard, somewhere in the back of my memory is that he had worked with Bell Laboratories somewhat. I don't know if he's ever done any work under the firm name of Jansky and Bailey or not. I don't think so. But I don't know this. [crosstalk]?
Kestenbaum
[crosstalk]?
Beck
I'm not sure that he quit. I think it may have been summer. I'm not sure of this. But to go on that with this, as far as I know, his relationship to the laboratory was good, yes. Jansky was worried in the early years by the fact that he was only a temporary employee because of his health, and it was some time before he was on the permanent payroll. It could have helped difficulties when he first came. He was, and I'm sure always, very loyal. Well, at our company parties and so forth, he used to take part in skits and things of this kind, and I have never heard anything in the least of any feeling against the laboratory, even in his later years. Personally, anything that he did. And we were a close-knit group at the time, and I think we all felt about the same the whole thing. We griped about things naturally during the Depression and reduced pay and all this, due to the shorter hours. We all had these feelings, and we all talked about it, but it was common to the whole group, and he very much one of the group. He took various out of hour courses. He always took an active part and various things of this kind. He was very questioning. He frequently asked questions in discussion periods at a colloquium and so on, so much so that he got the nickname of "static" from the rest of the boys. When he'd ask questions sometimes, somebody would say "static" to him [laughter] because of this, and all in good feeling. We got a lot of respect for him and for his curiosity.
Kestenbaum
I'm about finished with my questions here, but if there's anything you want to add, please feel free to say anything.
Beck
Yes. I want to add one more thing. A lot of this whole feeling of his desires to go on with it and of his being refused by the company I think has come from his family. And the reason I think that is that it is quoted in Pfieffer's book, and I'd like to comment on this because I was connected with it personally. In fact, so much so that I know when one of the men here, Crawford, asked his wife about it, and incidentally for some years after his death, his wife lived in the next apartment to my mother in Red Bank and I still knew her. Art Crawford asked her once if she'd ever heard Karl say anything to this effect, and her answer was, "You've read Pfieffer's book, haven't you?" But she never admitted that she had.
Kestenbaum
In other words, what you're saying is that she got her information from Pfieffer's book?
Beck
Yes. Right after this thing that I quoted. Jansky's feeling that he had found what there was to find and didn't regret going on that his other work, and it wasn't a change in work. He went on with what he was doing. Never was changed completely in his work years after. Never was any direction to stop this and do something else. He went on with what he was doing. He just gave less time to this, which never was a half time job even in my opinion. Pfieffer says in response to that, "But there is another side to the story. Jansky used to correspond regularly with his father who had been an electrical engineer at the University of Oklahoma." I'm not sure about that. I know his father. I think his father was at one time at Wisconsin also. "And excerpts from some of his letters indicate that he was not at all happy about leaving radio astronomy. For several years he did all he could to convince his associates and superiors that the work was worth pursuing for practical reasons." Now this is entirely from Cyril Jansky. We're sure. We never heard any of this. I never heard any of this. "But his arguments failed to produce results. Perhaps Jansky he himself was not convinced by them. More than anything else, he may simply have wanted to explore the new field for its own sake. A letter written in the spring of 1936 is particularly revealing. At that time, Jansky wanted to leave his position. He thought of working at the State University of Iowa but only if he was given freedom to go ahead with his studies in radio astronomy. 'Of course, I would ask for the time and facilities to carry out my research, which would be more than I have had for the last two years.' Jansky never made the move. He remained at the Bell Laboratories." I think this whole statement, my personal opinion, is false, and that the whole implication is false.
Kestenbaum
You're saying it's false?
Beck
I'm saying this now. I should state what I quoted now, but you can read the book later and check.
Kestenbaum
Yes. I'd read this. Sorry.
Beck
This statement is here, and this is the main thing apparently that Cyril told him because he had this letter. It happens that at the time Karl Jansky and I, having both been teachers, were teaching courses to the technical assistants here, working together very closely in there. In 1936, things were very bad at the laboratories between '34 and '36 were the worst years of the Depression. All of us had thought somewhat of finding something better if we could because we felt that the laboratories had been pretty hard hit and we weren't getting very much money. We were looking for something better. Of course, I did too. I considered a job at some other places. I [inaudible] too, but the point is that Jansky did talk to the people at Iowa, State University of Iowa, [inaudible] station and so on. He had a letter from them and was considering a job. He showed me that letter, the offer. Although I never saw this that he wrote to his father, but I was fully aware of the connection with the University of Iowa. In fact, we were jointly thinking a little about it, about this kind of a job, and I want particularly to read this again -
Kestenbaum
But coming back to point, you were not aware that Jansky and Karl Jansky ever made or wrote the statement that his superiors had prevented him from continuing to study radio astronomy and did not give him sufficient equipment then?
Beck
I don't believe he ever did. I want to quote what Jansky said in a letter to his father, used here to prove something different entirely my opinion. Karl wrote, "Of course I would ask for the time and facilities to carry on my research, which would be more than I have had for the last twos year." He didn't say research in radio astronomy. I don't think he wanted to do research in astronomy. He wanted to do research on systems, equipment, and antennas. We talked this over together. We both did. There had been so little money available during the Depression in the Bell Laboratories that we were not able to get equipment to get things we wanted to do things along that line. I don't believe Karl Jansky meant radio astronomy at all [crosstalk].
Kestenbaum
And did you believe that Pfieffer actually read these letters [crosstalk] quotes?
Beck
I think maybe Pfieffer read that thing that he quoted. But I don't believe - I think he misinterpreted it.
Kestenbaum
What about the previous statements?
Beck
In this statement, Karl never used the word - anything about radio astronomy. He wanted to carry on his research. His research was not radio astronomy. It was in a different field entirely. It was in radio systems and communications. That's what he wanted to carry on at Iowa State.
Kestenbaum
We don't have any problem on that account here.
Beck
Yes. He did have problems. We all did because of the Depression. We didn't get as much equipment as we needed really to do the things we wanted to do.
Kestenbaum
Equipment [crosstalk].
Beck
You wouldn't buy them. It was very hard to come by. This was the Depression.
Kestenbaum
[crosstalk] at the University of Iowa where [crosstalk].
Beck
Well, we talked it over very much together. I don't know that he actually went there or not. His feeling was, he said, "Of course, I would ask for time and facilities to carry on my research," is what he said, which is more than he had. His feeling was that he couldn't get them there either due to similar reasons. That's the main reason I think he didn't change. That's the main reason I didn't, and I knew of this business at the time. So I don't believe that Pfieffer drew the correction implications. I think Cyril has been misled by this, that they have drawn entirely false conclusions, and his wife only said, "Read the book." And so I don't believe she heard any of this.
Kestenbaum
Is there anything else you want to add here?
Beck
Well, there's some more comments here in Pfieffer's book, which I think are [crosstalk].
Kestenbaum
Well, I thought of perhaps of your recollection of Jansky? Anything else you want to talk about?
Beck
Well, Jansky -
Kestenbaum
His illness or his -
Beck
His illness. Jansky, of course, knew [crosstalk].
Kestenbaum
- personal relations with his coworkers or things like that?
Beck
His personal relations with his coworkers were always to my knowledge excellent. I don't remember anyone with whom he ever had any kind of a feud in any way. He was one of the finest fellows personally that I have known.
Kestenbaum
Friendly [inaudible]?
Beck
Very friendly. He was good at athletics in spite of his physical difficulties, which were not the ones that finally killed exactly. And he had others.
Kestenbaum
He was a good bridge player too.
Beck
He was an excellent bridge player and even played hockey on the -
Kestenbaum
Wisconsin facility.
Beck
Anything of this kind.
Kestenbaum
Yes. Yes.
Beck
He played bridge with some of the fellows here, although I never was and I didn't know him in that respect. But in a lot of things, he was a competitor. Anything he did, he did well. No matter what. He was the Monmouth County singles champion in table tennis himself. He beat me. [laughter].
Kestenbaum
No reason to suspect that in the latter part of his life - of course, he died at the age of 44 - that he was frustrated professionally?
Beck
[crosstalk]. I don't think so.
Kestenbaum
[crosstalk].
Beck
Although in his very later years, last few years, last year or two, his health very deteriorated very considerably. I know he talked openly about this with me more than once. He had severe high blood pressure, which was of course probably the reason for the stroke that finally killed him. And this developed. I'm not sure it was so bad when he came I think it was - I don't remember - something else, I think, was one of many physical difficulties when he first came to the company. This could be checked with medical because he was on a temporary basis due to his health then. But he developed a very severe case of hypertension, blood pressure. He talked to me about it. He went to specialists at the time, and they told him that he might have ten years more life if he went to Duke University and took their special treatment for high blood pressure. It was then best known in the country. He did go to the Duke University Hospital. They put him on a diet of rice and fruit juice, and after a few ounces of meat a week, and very, very strict diet, which he followed, he came to the company dinner and brought something like this to eat because he couldn't eat anything else. Sometimes we kidded him about it. And his health was bad, and then he had a series of strokes before the final one.
Kestenbaum
Just one final question, Mr. Beck. Do you think that Jansky knew the significance of what he was doing when he actually made these discoveries?
Beck
I think he felt that it was very significant.
Kestenbaum
But he didn't [crosstalk].
Beck
He didn't realize it was going to be this kind of a science. I can remember talking with him at the time he was made a Fellow at the Institute of Radio Engineers, and we discussed a little bit was it because of this or his other work, and I think he thought that it was for all of the work that he had done. He had contributed quite a little to the methods of measuring noise, integrating signals, and so forth. And he was honored by being elected a Fellow of the Institute of Radio Engineers, highest award.
Kestenbaum
I was referring to radio astronomy now. Did he realize the significance of that at the time?
Beck
I don't know, but my feeling is that, yes, he felt that it was important.
Kestenbaum
It was important.
Beck
And that this was a considerably important type of contribution in many ways that it had scientific use, but that he would not go along those lines; someone else should, I think. That he had his other work in which he was very much interested and got a great deal of satisfaction from his other work.
Kestenbaum
Did he at all ever attempt to explain what the causes of these signals were?
Beck
Not to my knowledge.
Kestenbaum
Not to your knowledge.
Beck
But here they were, they came in, and here's how they behave, and prove that they did come from space. I'm pretty sure that in his original papers, there is not any attempt to speculate about the source of it.
Kestenbaum
Well, thank you very much, Mr. Beck. It was very nice talking with you.