Frank D. Drake, interviewed by Kenneth I. Kellermann on 14 September 2010
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The transcription may have been read and edited for clarity by Kellermann, and may have also been read and edited by the interviewee. Any notes added in the reading/editing process by Kellermann, the interviewee, or others who read the transcript have been included in brackets. During processing, full names of institutions and people were added in brackets and if especially long the interview was split into parts.
Please bear in mind that: 1) This material is a transcript of the spoken word rather than a literary product; 2) An interview must be read with the awareness that different people's memories about an event will often differ, and that memories can change with time for many reasons including subsequent experiences, interactions with others, and one's feelings about an event.
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Kellermann
This is Ken [Kenneth I.] Kellermann. It’s September 14, 2010 and I’m with Frank Drake in Green Bank, West Virginia. I did want to go over because you told me this story once, but I didn’t write it down, about the 36 foot.
Drake
The 36 foot?
Kellermann
Yeah, I know you paid a big role in that, getting Frank Low and everything.
Drake
I got Frank Low there and I got the 36 foot.
Kellermann
But I think what you put in the book may have been a little bit exaggerated. There was an extra half a page in the annual budget request or something.
Drake
No, that’s not exaggerated. That annual budget request must be in the files somewhere. That was, you know, a major document. It must be somewhere.
Kellermann
Yeah but you said there was a spare page so you just wrote that in, half a page.
Drake
Yeah, that’s true.
Kellermann
But surely there must have been some broader discussion.
Drake
There was no discussion. That’s so weird. It was a last minute thing and it was just decided to just try it, we can’t lose.
Kellermann
So what year was that? It must have been- when I came in ’65 it was...
Drake
Under construction.
Kellermann
Nearly complete. The dish was at the bottom of the mountain waiting to be moved up.
Drake
It was probably ’62 but there is one paragraph saying, "We propose to build a 36 foot millimeter dish for $1 million." The $1 million came from using a scaling law I developed from the cost of various antennas as to how to you could predict the cost of an antenna depending on its wavelength, minimum wavelength and size, and the price is the square root of the maximum frequency and the diameter to the 2.7 power, if I remember right.
Kellermann
2.7, I think, is a standard number that everybody uses now and .7 for the frequency.
Drake
That may be what I used but it came from such a calculation. You know, I didn’t go to any manufacturer or engineer or anything. I used entirely that simple formula.
Kellermann
And at what point did you recruit Frank Low? How did you know about him?
Drake
How did I know about him?
Kellermann
He was at Texas Instruments.
Drake
He was at Texas Instruments. Somebody, and that’s what I can’t remember, told me. Well, at NRAO we talked about we should get into millimeter wave astronomy about which we knew nothing and somehow, I wish I could remember, somebody told me that there was this invention at Texas Instruments of a bolometer that would work at 1 millimeter wavelength and was very sensitive and it had been invented by this guy Frank Low. So I made a trip to Dallas and talked to him about it. And he was really interested. I brought him on a visit to Green Bank and he agreed to come. That was how that worked. There was no big deal there, not a lot of coaxing or arm twisting.
Kellermann
Things were easy then.
Drake
Things were easy and I think he was kind of fed up with the industrial ambiance of Texas Instruments. And when he came he just took over. He ran the project like he was an independent operator.
Kellermann
Which he became. Did he handle the contact and the mechanical aspects and everything?
Drake
Yeah. We got him a dish.
Kellermann
Yeah, there were some small dishes.
Drake
There was one of these Kennedy spin cast dishes which I think was a 6 foot dish which got mounted on a mount just back of the Jansky Lab. And the waveguides and feeds were all made in the lab. They were tiny things. They were incredible looking. The feed looked like a soda straw. And he put it all together and we did assign him a technician and his name was Arnold Davidson, who went with him eventually when he went to [University of Arizona].
Kellermann
When I came in June of ’65- I remember now. I asked you the other day when you left. I came for a visit in 1963 on my way to Australia and you were just leaving.
Drake
[?] summer of ’63.
Kellermann
And that’s when I came. And when I came in ’65, Frank was already gone and Arnold was here and Dave [David S.] Heeschen. He had two weeks left or something. Dave Heeschen told me, "Well, you’re interested in source spectra. Learn all you can about bolometers in the next two weeks."
Drake
Did you cope with it alright?
Kellermann
Well, no. I mean we had an arrangement after the telescope was built. So I would go out there and work with Arnold and Frank. We never got past Saturn I think. There were huge thermal effects and you couldn’t start observing till...
Drake
Dark?
Kellermann
No, until it settled down. You couldn’t use it during the day. 10 o’clock at night and just getting focused.
Drake
And the atmosphere was probably coming and going.
Kellermann
That wasn’t too bad.
Drake
When we first came it was mid-winter and that was pretty good then. There was very little water vapor.
Kellermann
I was talking about Kitt Peak, not here.
Drake
Oh, Kitt Peak?
Kellermann
Yeah, the 36 foot.
Drake
You’re not talking about the 6 foot, you’re talking about the 36 foot.
Kellermann
Right. So it must have been finished in ’66 or something. So when you came [John W.] Findlay and Heeschen were here?
Drake
Yeah, there were both here already, hadn’t been here long, just three or four months. It was not long. And we were all in the nut bin, as it was called.
Kellermann
That was the house that was right here past where the gate is now?
Drake
Yeah, and then very quickly we moved into a house that was farther up in the site because the nut bin was a one story place. And I could show you the house but I can’t remember the name of it but it was two stories. The three of us were on the second floor and on the first floor were the first two electronics technicians, Warren Wooddell and Dewey Ross. And then soon thereafter Grote Reber showed up.
Kellermann
I was going to ask you about that actually.
Drake
And life changed.
Kellermann
I’ve heard all the stories. I got to know him pretty well too.
Drake
He was a character.
Kellermann
Did you have some specific responsibility or area then? John was in charge of electronics I gather, of all instrumentation.
Drake
Yeah, actually at that time, you know, there was no telescope so none of us had any specific titles or anything. Later on when the 85 foot was built, I became the Director of Scientific Services and Telescope Operations. And that’s when we invented this thing, which had been a great success, called the telescope operator. That was a whole new concept because up until then radio astronomer all ran their telescopes themselves.
Kellermann
That was essentially a copy of the night assistant.
Drake
Yeah, the same thing as a night assistant but that had not existed in radio astronomy. But since we were going to be bringing in a lot of visitors it sounded like a good plan. Plus we needed the help. We needed more hands and the first one was Fred Crews.
Kellermann
Right. Actually Fred told me that’s not the case.
Drake
There is somebody before him?
Kellermann
Yeah.
Drake
Do you know their name?
Kellermann
I forget. Somebody we know but I forget who it was. But it was only a month or so.
Drake
Fred was there very early. He might not have been the first. There was a guy named [Tim Hankens?] who went to Arecibo.
Kellermann
No that...
Drake
Omar Bowyer was early too.
Kellermann
He was here much earlier. He was here before Fred.
Drake
There was George Grove, Omar Bowyer, Fred Crews. I forget who else. I’ll have to look it up, make sure of the staff, or something might ring a bell.
Kellermann
So there was no director then except for Lloyd Berkner.
Drake
There was this ongoing search for a director.
Kellermann
I’ve read a lot about this but what was the attitude here locally about the situation?
Drake
Nobody cared much because we were getting the stuff done. We didn’t need a director then. Everything was so simple. We didn’t have a telescope. We didn’t have an observing program. And we did everything just sort of by consensus. With that few people it was easy.
Kellermann
You all got along well?
Drake
Yeah, everybody got along.
Kellermann
Even with John.
Drake
Oh well, he was ok. I mean he was pompous once in a while but he was fine. And then very soon Hein Hvatum came and that got to be the team. And Hein was real easy to work with. He was always cooperative. Later on another year, it was probably a year then Sebastian von Hoerner came and Dave Hogg.
Kellermann
Yeah, Dave first came as a student.
Drake
If you say so.
Kellermann
Yeah, I’ve talked to him. Do you remember your number?
Drake
No, I don’t but it was a very low number. It was like 4 or 5 or something because at that time the only other staff member was [Beety Sheets?] and there was probably somebody in maintenance.
Kellermann
I think Berkner and [Richard] Emberson had numbers.
Drake
Did they?
Kellermann
That’s what Heeschen said once, should be able to look that up.
Drake
It was some low number, yeah. A lot of stuff got built then. I was just thinking that it almost seemed like overnight the Janksy Lab, the cafeteria, and the residence hall, and the maintenance building. Those all happened...
Kellermann
Before you came?
Drake
No. When I came there was nothing.
Kellermann
That’s right. You said you were in the other building.
Drake
There were no new structures whatsoever. We were making due with farmhouses.
Kellermann
And were relations with the locals as sensitive as has been described later?
Drake
Yeah, but, you know, the deed was done. The land had been bought. The families had been evicted- you know that was before my time whether they actually evicted them or whether they just paid them enough that they didn’t mind.
Kellermann
Fred told me that their farming wasn’t doing very well, the structures were old, and that they were not unhappy to be...
Drake
Yeah, I think that was the case as long as they got paid, maybe probably more than they expected but actually not very much, they were happy. And we used to hire some of the locals to babysit our kids and such and they were always really friendly.
Kellermann
Yeah, I did too when I was here.
Drake
My wife taught Becky [Sheets?] to play the piano.
Kellermann
So why did you leave?
Drake
It was because I’d been in Green Bank for five years and it was getting really boring. And it was decided that the national centers should get to know each other better or something so we were invited to visit Kitt Peak.
Kellermann
Yeah, that was gone when I came [?]. That was good.
Drake
It was like a visit to another planet. There was a real town and city and restaurants and stuff and real schools. And I gave a paper at some meeting of the radio emission of Venus, which I’d done with the 85 foot, and some guy from JPL [Jet Propulsion Laboratory] offered me a big position at JPL and I thought, "Wow, I can move to a big city, a big laboratory with lots of money and equipment." That was the attraction. It turned out to be a big mistake. JPL was awful.
Kellermann
Well, knowing what I know now, yes. That’s why I asked the question but we didn’t know then or you didn’t know then.
Drake
No, I didn’t. I loved the experience of Green Bank- the people, what we were doing, the freedom we had. It was all great. It was really great.
Kellermann
But the move to Charlottesville was already known.
Drake
No.
Kellermann
Yes, when I came in ’63 Dave told me about the moving plan to Charlottesville.
Drake
I was partially responsible for that, I think, because...
Kellermann
You were leaving.
Drake
I was leaving and part of that was that the school was terrible in Green Bank. I had two kids approaching school age and this offer came from JPL. I thought, "This sounds good," and the fact that I bailed out, I think, created pressure for the Charlottesville move because a lot of families were moving out.
Kellermann
I came out when I was still single, everybody moved and I just stayed but by that time the elementary school was ok.
Drake
They fixed it up later?
Kellermann
Yeah and a lot of the NRAO spouses taught. So through elementary school is was ok. You know, you didn’t have a lot of the problems you had in big cities but then as soon as you got to the middle grades...
Drake
It wasn’t good.
Kellermann
I mean it didn’t offer the advanced opportunities you get and of course, the fraction of the local people that went on to higher education was very low. So the whole peer pressure situation...
Drake
Was not good.
Kellermann
We left when our daughter was 10.
Drake
The same experience as mine, I guess. Yeah, I felt that the family was just too limited here, limited education but limited everything else, extracurricular stuff.
Kellermann
Yeah, but that changed.
Drake
Yeah, it seems to be pretty good now.
Kellermann
Ok, well thanks. Oh, I did want to ask you about [Otto] Struve.
Drake
Struve, oh god. Did you overlap with Struve?
Kellermann
No. So one reason that when he came he was already very old though I realize he was a lot younger than I am now.
Drake
He didn’t want to come so that was a part of it. Actually he knew he wasn’t competent. Have I told you any of that story?
Kellermann
No, I mean I’ve read a lot.
Drake
It’s a somewhat longer story. After all our searching for a director they recruited Joe [Joseph L.] Pawsey, which was terrific and he came here...
Kellermann
Yeah, I’m familiar with all that.
Drake
The brain tumor and all that, and then suddenly one day, Joe Pawsey is gone and we were back at square one- no director, nobody in sight. And AUI [Associated Universities Incorporated] Board was searching around for a director and Struve was on the Board, I think.
Kellermann
No, there was a committee.
Drake
He was involved in the search somehow, either as an AUI Board of Director or just...
Kellermann
No, there was a Selection Committee that was appointed.
Drake
Yeah, he was on it.
Kellermann
I found the papers of Ira Bowen, who was the chair, and I found his papers at the Huntington Library. So it’s got all the details of that and the problems that they had and everything. Then Struve volunteered or was drafted. But what I really want to know is what it was like when he was here and the 140 foot problems.
Drake
They were all over his head. Let me just tell you what he told me, why he had taken the job. He said he’d been on that search committee and he saw that what was to be a great observatory was in desperate need of leadership and his statement, this is a quote, he said, "I am a solider in the army of astronomy and I saw it as my duty to take on this job because this was a very important institution that needed an experienced director." But the phrase I remember him saying is that, "I am a solider in the army of astronomy." And then he came and one of the few- I’ve probably told you some of this stuff before and things he said. For one thing, he studied all the programs that were going on and what the telescope could observe- at that time it was the 85 foot- discovered that we could only see like 50 radio sources or something like that and he got really upset. You can’t do a lot of research if you can only see 50 things. One of his first comments was, "You have to discover some variable radio sources because then you’ll have something to observe forever." That was one of his first comments. And then I actually mapped the galactic center with the 85 foot and his comment on that was, "Oh, thank god. You’ve justified the whole cost of that telescope." And then the other thing he did, he missed working on stellar spectra, optical spectra, and so he hired Roger Lynds and [Beatty Lynds?], actually to get [Beatty Lynds?].
Kellermann
Oh.
Drake
Yeah because she’d been his assistant and he wanted her as an assistant so they could work on some optical spectra he was going to get some place so he hired [Beatty?]. In those days, you didn’t hire a wife and not the husband so he hired Roger as an astronomer and got [Beatty?] as Assistant to the Director and Librarian. And they showed up and that made his life better because he could talk optical spectra with [Beatty?]. And she was working then on her dark nebulae catalog.
Kellermann
Did he bring, I don’t remember her name...
Drake
Also, yeah...
Kellermann
Who was his librarian or assistant? She was still here when I came.
Drake
Yeah, he brought her. I forget her name. But [Beatty?] was to be his sort of science colleague because the radio astronomers didn’t talk the same language and he was always uncomfortable in meetings when we were talking in megahertz and beam widths and things. He was pretty unhappy as solider duty. He would occasionally go off to New York for a week at a time. I never knew what he did.
Kellermann
To AUI?
Drake
No, he would go as vacation. He would go just get out of there for a week. He’d do that every few months, just disappear for a week and then come back. His wife hated it. You know, we built the redwood house for him.
Kellermann
That was built specifically for him?
Drake
That was built specifically for Struve because he was so tall, because there wasn’t a suitable director’s residence. It was built with him specifically in mind so everything is oversized. I don’t know if you’ve noticed that.
Kellermann
I haven’t been in there in years.
Drake
And his wife lived in the redwood house and she came to no social events and occasionally you would meet her walking the observatory road, you know, the one that goes down to the 140 foot, and she’d be in sort of a long robe and she was like sort of a ghost walking the road. She had a purple robe she’d walk in. But she didn’t mix at all. She didn’t come to any social events. He must have been having a real tough time. So finally he moved on to Berkeley and there was another directorial crisis but by now Dave had been around long enough that he’d earned the trust and respect of the authorities in AUI so they made him Director.
Kellermann
I think not from the way he tells it, [Isidor Isaac] Rabi.
Drake
Rabi. I was there. Rabi tapped him.
Kellermann
No, but they didn’t get along. Apparently Dave said that Rabi was unhappy with move to Charlottesville, wanted to go to Princeton or...
Drake
That was after my time.
Kellermann
He said he didn’t speak to him for a year.
Drake
That’s wonderful.
Kellermann
I mean, Rabi didn’t speak to Dave.
Drake
Yeah. But I think Rabi got fed up with this whole business, revolving door. I remember there was a meeting of the trustees. For some reason I was there, I don’t know why. Rabi just announced, "We’re going to make Dave the Director."
Kellermann
Were the 140 problems...
Drake
That really didn’t affect the astronomers because that was all contractors dealing directly with AUI, you know. So Emberson and those guys were coming and going but it didn’t wash down on us at all. We were happily doing our stuff with the 85 foot. No, we never were involved. The only way we were involved was picking the site. They asked us to find the site, exactly where to put it. Findlay did that. He went out one day with a stake and pounded it in the ground and that was it.
Kellermann
Certainly during the 85 foot era it wasn’t really a national observatory in the sense of attracting people.
Drake
It did attract a few mainly [Gart] Westerhout. Westerhout was coming all the time. I can’t remember any other visitor but Westerhout was real active.
Kellermann
He was a big user on the 300 foot.
Drake
Yeah, the whole time I was at Green Bank Westerhout was coming and going.
Kellermann
He did a long time after I came.
Drake
I remember the time he went out- the first day he was here with his kids and was driving down the road to the Hannah House and told the story about how he saw a snake in the road and they don’t have snakes in Holland. You had to show his kids a snake so they stopped the car and ran over towards the snake and the snake ran off into the grass. He came to the 85 foot where we were after that and was telling us about this, "We went in the grass and we actually could find the snake because it kept making this rattling sound."
Kellermann
I think the whole time I was here I saw one rattlesnake and that wasn’t on the site, it was hiking.
Drake
I never saw any but he did.
Kellermann
Ok, well thanks.